animate objects and dead creatures

[TYPO5478]

They are. From the 3.5 FAQ:
"Speak with dead doesn’t work on undead creatures, only on
corpses. An undead creature is not alive, but it’s also not a
corpse—a corpse is an object. (The undead creature might have
been made from a corpse, but it has transformed into something
else, mainly a creature). If you destroy an undead creature, it
ceases being a creature and becomes an object again."

I love it when people quote the FAQ instead of the rules. If only there were a rule in the rulebooks that said the same thing. Maybe you could give me a page number?

It is. I'm unsure who would argue that the animated corpse of a huge creature would not also be a huge creature.

That's not my argument. We're not talking about animating corpses; there's already a spell to do that, and the OP is avoiding using it. It's my guess that he doesn't want to use animate dead because of the HD restriction. Virtually all Huge Dragons have at least 20 HD. That exceeds the limit for zombies and is at the very edge of the limit for skeletons. In addition, you'd have to have CL20 to turn a 20 HD dragon into a skeleton. On the other hand, if you consider a 20 HD dragon corpse a Huge object, you could animate it with animate objects. Granted, you'd only get an 8 HD Construct instead of a 40 HD Undead, but you can pull it off with an 11th level cleric (or a 16th level Bard) instead of a 20th level caster.

My point was that, while there are specific descriptions for the size categories of creatures, there is no specific description for the size categories of objects. A Small object is not necessarily the same size as a Small creature. Likewise a Huge object is not necessarily the same size as a Huge creature. We know that we can use animate objects on a Huge object, but we don't know the definition of a Huge object.

fwiw (for the OP), I just found this in the 3.5 FAQ:
"There are no rules for determining the hardness or hit
points of a corpse. Most dead bodies don’t have a hardness
score, but the creature’s DR (if any) should continue to apply
against attacks. Use Table 9–9: Substance Hardness and Hit
Points and Table 9–11: Object Hardness and Hit Points in the
Player’s Handbook to estimate hit point values for corpses
should such situations arise in your game."

You know, that's a great idea. OP, you should look up corpses on the Object Hardness and Hit Points table. Here's the link if you need it.

 

[Voadam]

To make this work, you've got to make a couple of dubious (or at least debatable) decisions. First, you have to decide that corpses are objects. I can't find a rule at the moment to confirm or deny this, but in my opinion, the fact that several spell targets make a distinction between objects and corpses means that corpses are not simply objects in the general sense of the game term.

What spells make a distinction that would indicate corpses are a different category from objects and not a subset of objects?

 

[mvincent]

I love it when people quote the FAQ instead of the rules. If only there were a rule in the rulebooks that said the same thing. Maybe you could give me a page number?

I love it when others are rude without providing supporting information/research. Regardless, I am perfectly content to have the OP weight the information and decide for himself on your credibility.

 

[Tetsubo]

As a GM I've always ruled that a corpse is an object. The size issue has never occurred to me... a Medium sized object is Medium sized whether alive, dead or animated... these are just my opinions, no page sources available...

 

[Obrysii]

By RAW, anything that lacks a Wis and Cha score is an object.

And corpses lack both, they are objects.

 

[TYPO5478]

What spells make a distinction that would indicate corpses are a different category from objects and not a subset of objects?

All the spells that target "corpse(s)" or "dead creature(s)" rather than "once-living object(s)." Animate dead or raise dead, for example. Raise dead is rather a better example: since both "dead" and "creature" are specific game terms, it implies that creatures don't stop being creatures even after they are dead.

I love it when others are rude without providing supporting information/research. Regardless, I am perfectly content to have the OP weight the information and decide for himself on your credibility.

Your claim is that corpses are objects. The burden of proof is on you to show that such a rule exists, not upon me to show that it doesn't exist. My credibility has nothing to do with that. The rules do.

By RAW, anything that lacks a Wis and Cha score is an object.

And corpses lack both, they are objects.

An excellent point. However, I refer you to the description of the condition Dead. Only your Constitution score drops to zero when you are dead, not any of the others. Even if all of your other scores dropped to zero (including Wisdom and Charisma), the rules specify that an attribute score of zero is not the same as no score at all.

 

[Voadam]

Many spells target specific types of objects. E.g. magic weapon, greater magic weapon, magic vestment. This does not imply that weapons, armor, and shields are not objects.

Pointing to "dead creature" or "corpse" as a spell target line does not tell us whether the rules classify corpses as a subcategory of objects or not.

Where is the distinction between corpses and objects in these spells?

 

[Voadam]

An excellent point. However, I refer you to the description of the condition Dead. Only your Constitution score drops to zero when you are dead, not any of the others. Even if all of your other scores dropped to zero (including Wisdom and Charisma), the rules specify that an attribute score of zero is not the same as no score at all.

Zero wisdom and charisma are unconscious, not dead.

Corpses are not unconscious.

 

[TYPO5478]

Many spells target specific types of objects. E.g. magic weapon, greater magic weapon, magic vestment. This does not imply that weapons, armor, and shields are not objects.

Pointing to "dead creature" or "corpse" as a spell target line does not tell us whether the rules classify corpses as a subcategory of objects or not.

Where is the distinction between corpses and objects in these spells?

I'll admit the distinction is interpretive (that is, I am interpreting a distinction). However, weapons and armor are described elsewhere as being objects (at least weapons are, I'm not sure about armor). On the other hand, corpses are never described in the rules as being objects. That's been my whole point. The spell targets I mentioned aren't exactly proof that corpses aren't objects, I just thought it was indicative. It doesn't really matter; the burden of proof is still on those who are making the claim.

Let me turn the question around. Do you believe that a creature is also an object, regardless of whether it is dead?

Zero wisdom and charisma are unconscious, not dead.

Corpses are not unconscious.

Right. Corpses are dead. Becoming dead doesn't change your attribute scores. So corpses retain their original Wisdom and Charisma scores. Since they have those scores, they are not objects.

 

[Deset Gled]

Raise dead is rather a better example: since both "dead" and "creature" are specific game terms, it implies that creatures don't stop being creatures even after they are dead.

I'll bite.

The SRD states:

Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell’s area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected.

If you assume that dead creatures are still some type of creature, and not objects, by this definition dead creatures are also "living creatures", since they are not constructs or undead.

This is not proof positive against your case, but it leads to some very interesting results. For example, you need to be very careful when casting Sleep, as it targets the closest "living creature" of lowest HD first. A kobold could completely protect himself from Sleep by surrounding himself with his fallen comrades. This also means that you can cast Atonement on a dead creature, which will probably be a big relief to some of those guys stuck in hell dimensions for being naughty.