animate objects and dead creatures

[TYPO5478]

If you assume that dead creatures are still some type of creature, and not objects, by this definition dead creatures are also "living creatures", since they are not constructs or undead.

This is not proof positive against your case, but it leads to some very interesting results. For example, you need to be very careful when casting Sleep, as it targets the closest "living creature" of lowest HD first. A kobold could completely protect himself from Sleep by surrounding himself with his fallen comrades. This also means that you can cast Atonement on a dead creature, which will probably be a big relief to some of those guys stuck in hell dimensions for being naughty.

Fair enough. Maybe I didn't make it clear before, but I'm not resting my case on my interpretation of "dead creature" targets. Mainly I'm still waiting for someone to point out a rule that says dead creatures are objects. So far, no one has. As soon as they do, I'll concede.

On the other hand, since there's nothing in the rules about dying that stipulates creatures become objects when they die, perhaps we could assume that even living creatures are objects. Incidentally, the word object is not a defined game term, so living creatures definitely fit at least one general definition of the word "object." However, this interpretation also has some strange consequences. Animate objects could easily be cast on a party of four Medium sized adventurers (with no save) to turn them into 2 HD constructs (again assuming that creature size is equivalent to object size) who follow the commands of the caster. Does this seem like a legitimate interpretation?

There are spells that target living creatures specifically, like slay living or circle of death. There are actually many more spells that target creatures in general instead of "living creatures." The excerpt you quoted comes from the section on describing area spells. Clearly this was included to specify that such spells affect creatures within the area (c.f. circle of death), not anything in the area (as fireball would).

The point is that "living creatures" are still within the category of "creatures." The same goes for dead creatures.

 

[mvincent]

Incidentally, the word object is not a defined game term

But "creature" is. From the PHB glossary:
"creature
A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably."

 

[Jhaelen]

Becoming dead doesn't change your attribute scores. So corpses retain their original Wisdom and Charisma scores. Since they have those scores, they are not objects.

Why do you think corpses retain their Wisdom and Charisma scores? Please back it up by rules.

If being dead didn't change your attribute scores, you'd also retain your STR, DEX & CON scores. Which would mean you could still act normally in every way. Congratulations, you've just made everyone immortal!

Btw., you've been interpreting the 'Dead' condition incorrectly:
The 'Dead' condition mentions a Con score of 0 as one of the possible causes for the 'Dead' condition. It's not an effect of being dead! Cause =/= Effect!

I think it's perfectly obvious: A corpse is an object and thus a perfectly valid target for Animate Object. Spells mentioning a corpse as a target are only effective against a subset of objects.
The FAQ supports that view.

 

[ElectricDragon]

My point was that, while there are specific descriptions for the size categories of creatures, there is no specific description for the size categories of objects.

From the Player's Handbook

Size: The physical dimensions and/or weight of a creature or object. The sizes, from smallest to largest, are Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal.

Notice it does not mention that sizes are different for creatures and objects. There is only one set of size categories not two. So, while the specific size descriptions only mention creatures, they also apply to objects.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Wystan]

TYPO, you are being extremely rude, but I will make a point to you as well...

Where in the rules does it state that a cloak is an object or not? Gloves? a bed? A house? dirt? blood?

There are a lot of Ambiguous things in D&D, but I would definitely agree that a corpse is an object as it is the no-longer used shell of a dead creature. Animating it does not confer the same benefits that raising it does. (Is there an 'Animate Dead' spell?)

 

[Lobo Lurker]

Why all the controversy? He's the DM so he can use Animate Object on a Huge Dragon if he wants to. The only change is that a Huge animated object is WAY weaker than a Huge Dragon or even a Huge Zombie Dragon. It might be just as tough and have tons of hit points but its also vulnerable to all the things that affect constructs and not undead while also being immune to most things that affect undead but not constructs.

Kudos to you Voadam for finding a unique monster/encounter for your players without fudging or breaking the spirit of the rules.

Sometimes you need to ignore the rules and simply apply common sense: Can the huge dragon corpse move on its own? Is it 'alive'? If the answer to both of those is no then its clearly an object. By that same logic you can't animate a Golem because a golem can move under its own power... which makes perfect sense to me.

In the end, whatever suits the game and what you want to do is the correct answer. If you want something to happen in your game, don't let something as trivial as Rules stand in the way... they're there to facilitate the game experience, not limit it.

 

[TYPO5478]

I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm not saying that the OP should ignore Rule 0. I'm simply engaging in a discussion of the RAW.

Btw., you've been interpreting the 'Dead' condition incorrectly:
The 'Dead' condition mentions a Con score of 0 as one of the possible causes for the 'Dead' condition. It's not an effect of being dead! Cause =/= Effect!

You're right. I realized that myself. I had been misreading the entry. If Con goes to zero, the creature becomes dead, not the other way around. If the character dies in a different manner, his Con score would remain intact. Thanks for pointing that out!

Why do you think corpses retain their Wisdom and Charisma scores? Please back it up by rules.

I think they don't change because the rules don't say they do. There's nothing in the "Dead" condition description (or anywhere else that I know of) that mentions attribute scores changing as a result of death. Why do you think that Wisdom and Charisma (or any other attribute) scores change after death? Please cite rules.

If being dead didn't change your attribute scores, you'd also retain your STR, DEX & CON scores. Which would mean you could still act normally in every way.

Except for the fact that you're still dead. As you pointed out, being dead has no effect on your Con score. Nor any others.

I think it's perfectly obvious: A corpse is an object and thus a perfectly valid target for Animate Object. Spells mentioning a corpse as a target are only effective against a subset of objects.
The FAQ supports that view.

I'm not going to discuss the FAQ, partially because the FAQ frequently has controversial (or even contradictory) answers to rules questions, but primarily because the FAQ is not the RAW.

From the Player's Handbook

Size: The physical dimensions and/or weight of a creature or object. The sizes, from smallest to largest, are Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal.

Notice it does not mention that sizes are different for creatures and objects. There is only one set of size categories not two. So, while the specific size descriptions only mention creatures, they also apply to objects.

Excellent! This is what I was looking for! Something that defines the size categories of objects. Was there a table with it? If not, we can use the Creature Size Table. Now, we know from the Weapon Size section that a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than its wielder. Now consider the athach. Referring to the size table from before, we see that the two morningstars he carries (Large objects, since they are one-handed Huge weapons) are at least 8 ft. long and 500 lbs heavy. Unfortunately for him (with his 26 Strength), carrying both of them will exceed his heavy load capacity. Even carrying one would put him well into his medium load. But maybe he's an aberration (pun intended).

How about a Cloud Giant? With his Strength of 35, his maximum carrying capacity is 3,200 lbs. But the Gargantuan morningstar (Huge Object) he carries weighs at least 4,000 lbs. It's all he can do to lift it and stagger around.

I could keep going through the monster entries, but I think I've made my point: clearly there are some problems equating creature size categories and object size categories. In my opinion, more than are caused by not considering corpses objects.

Where in the rules does it state that a cloak is an object or not? Gloves? a bed? A house? dirt? blood?

Nowhere, as far as I know. But none of those things were ever creatures. Corpses were.

Sometimes you need to ignore the rules and simply apply common sense: Can the huge dragon corpse move on its own? Is it 'alive'? If the answer to both of those is no then its clearly an object. By that same logic you can't animate a Golem because a golem can move under its own power... which makes perfect sense to me.

Using your criteria, the ghost of a violet fungus would be an object. I think you need one more criterion: was it ever a creature? That'll still satisfy your golem test.

There are a lot of Ambiguous things in D&D, but I would definitely agree that a corpse is an object as it is the no-longer used shell of a dead creature. Animating it does not confer the same benefits that raising it does. (Is there an 'Animate Dead' spell?)

Of course there's an animate dead spell! That's my point! Animate dead is for animating corpses and animate objects is for animating things that were never creatures to begin with.

 

[mvincent]

the FAQ is not the RAW.

Actually, any D&D supplement can clarify existing rules or present new ones, provided it doesn't conflict with a source that has primacy. Unlike other supplements, addressing unclear or controversial rules is the FAQ's purpose, so it will inevitably present rulings that others do not agree with (it would be impossible for it not to and still do its job).

Regardless, nitpicky people like us constantly write in to note corrections, which (if valid) cause them to revise the FAQ (I've seen this happen dozens of times). However, the FAQ is less likely to be changed by differences of opinion or differences on matters subject to interpretation (which happen constantly). For all intents and purposes, the FAQ has been reviewed more thoroughly than just about any D&D supplement available. Despite the vociferous deprecations on this particular board, the majority of players (based on polls I've seen on this very board) actually put great stock in the FAQ, and it is treated as canon in the RPGA. On matters subject to interpretation (which this topic would qualify as), in can at the least serve to provide a glimpse of the publisher's intent.

Still, you desired a quote from the core rulebooks, and were provided with the following from the PHB glossary:
"creature
A living or otherwise active being, not an object. "

This implies that a creature is not an object, and that a dead (but not undead or otherwise animated) being is an object.

 

[TYPO5478]

...the majority of players (based on polls I've seen on this very board) actually put great stock in the FAQ, and it is treated as canon in the RPGA. On matters subject to interpretation (which this topic would qualify as), in can at the least serve to provide a glimpse of the publisher's intent.

Do you mean to imply that the RPGA would allow corpses to become Constructs via animate objects during a sanctioned event? Or that such usage of that spell was actually intended by the publishers?

Still, you desired a quote from the core rulebooks, and were provided with the following from the PHB glossary:
"creature
A living or otherwise active being, not an object. "

This implies that a creature is not an object, and that a dead (but not undead or otherwise animated) being is an object.

Actually what I asked for was a rule that says a creature stops being a creature (or starts being an object) after it dies. For example, the description of wands says that after all the charges from a wand have been used, it is nothing more than a stick. I'm looking for a similar rule regarding creatures and objects.

I appreciate you providing that definition, but I disagree with your interpretation. First, I'm concerned that part of the definition is the negative of an undefined term. "Not an object." Okay, what's the definition of object?

My second concern is that if creatures can only be "living or otherwise active," the term "dead creature" (used frequently in the books) becomes oxymoronic. If it's dead, it can't be a creature, and if it's a creature, it must not be dead.

 

[mvincent]

Do you mean to imply that the RPGA would allow corpses to become Constructs via animate objects during a sanctioned event? Or that such usage of that spell was actually intended by the publishers?

Both.

Actually what I asked for was a rule that says a creature stops being a creature (or starts being an object) after it dies.

The implications of the definition seems to do that.

what's the definition of object?

For our purposes, the full extent of what constitutes an object does not matter. In the context of this definition, and a non-living being that is not active is an object.

the term "dead creature" (used frequently in the books) becomes oxymoronic.

It is oxymoronic. This is why the term "corpse" is used more commonly. However, not all writings can be expected to be perfect. Regardless, the body of a creature that has died is as an ex-creature... it can no longer be targeted as a creature, unless it becomes animated somehow.

To invoke some levity for Monty Python fans:
"This creature is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-CREATURE!"

For more details on the differences between creatures and an objects, check out this Rules of the Game article (which is also not part of the core rulebooks... but alas, learning often takes us to new places).