animate objects and dead creatures

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but as mvincent pointed out, "some creatures are not."

Some creatures are not living. Constructs and undead are not living, but they are otherwise active. A dead creature is neither.

Exactly my point, although you seem to interpret "destroyed" as simply "rendered inoperable" rather than "obliterated". If the corpse is still intact after destruction as a Construct, isn't it still a legal target for animate objects? Can you simply reanimate a destroyed animated object over and over?

I don't think 'destroying' a construct or undead requires obliteration, but I wouldn't consider it to be entirely undamaged. I'd say yes, a destroyed Construct is a valid target for Animate Objects, but it may not be animated in exactly the same fashion. For example, a carpet might, after being destroyed as an animated object, be somewhat shredded - if it were animated a second time, it might behave more like a bundle of ropes than a single sheetlike surface. It's a DM call as to how a damaged object behaves when animated... just as it's a DM call as to how an undamaged object behaves.

But nothing about one that has been a Construct in the intervening period. Are we to assume that Constructs are implicitly included?

A creature who has been animated as an undead creature (subsequently destroyed) cannot be Raised, for example; the text in the Resurrection spell is to clarify that this restriction does not apply to Resurrection.

Since no spell imposes a restriction on bringing back a creature whose corpse became a Construct in the interim, no clarifying text is required to permit it.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

Yes, but as mvincent pointed out, "some creatures are not."

1) The quote was not mine, but the RotG's
2) The quote was "some objects are alive and some creatures are not"
3) This is not the same as "some creatures are not" "living or otherwise active", as "otherwise active" is specifically addressing unliving (but active) creatures.
4) What is your goal here? (i.e. you seem to be losing cred for no good cause)

 

[TYPO5478]

1) The quote was not mine, but the RotG's

I understand that, but you did point it out. That's all I was saying.

2) The quote was "some objects are alive and some creatures are not"
3) This is not the same as "some creatures are not" "living or otherwise active", as "otherwise active" is specifically addressing unliving (but active) creatures.

I see what you're saying now. I've just never interpreted the definition of creature that way (that is to say that it implies that a creature turns into an object upon death).

4) What is your goal here? (i.e. you seem to be losing cred for no good cause)

My goal is to understand the nuances of this position (and I'm not sure what you mean by "losing cred"). Until this conversation, I hadn't even considered the possibility of dead bodies being animated through animate objects; to me, that's what animate dead was for. The notion that corpses are objects for the purposes of spells is foreign to me (but apparently I'm the only one). At this point, I just want to understand all the implications of this concept.

For one, as Voadam mentioned, shrink object becomes a very convenient way to hide a dead body, or at least makes the process easier. No way to cast mage armor on a corpse, according to Hypersmurf. No protection from [whatever] spells either. I wonder: does that mean any spell that specifically targeted a creature before it died would end as soon as it died? After all, the corpse, no longer being a creature, is an invalid target.

No imprisoning an enemy after they're killed. No preventing someone using discern location to find a corpse (without divine intervention). No dismissing or banishing extraplanars once they're dead. Presumably, a cadaver would be potential raw material for fabricate.

I wonder who would win in a magic duel: a cleric with a bunch of animate object spells prepared or a necromancer with a bunch of undead minions. Virtually anything will be susceptible to animation (and reanimated) using animate objects, including the remains of the necromancer's defeated undead. Then again, if Undead are "destroyed" in the same manner as Constructs, then the corpses would probably be intact enough to reanimate with animate dead or create undead. Of course, the necromancer would have to touch the corpses and the cleric wouldn't.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I wonder: does that mean any spell that specifically targeted a creature before it died would end as soon as it died? After all, the corpse, no longer being a creature, is an invalid target.

Target validity is important at casting time, but not thereafter.

If you cast Charm Person on an orc, who subsequently Polymorphs into a minotaur, his type changes from humanoid (valid target) to monstrous humanoid (invalid target)... but the spell is already in effect.

If you cast Heat Metal on the metal equipment of two creatures 20 feet apart (valid target), and then they move so that they are two creatures 40 feet apart (invalid target), their equipment continues heating up - the spell is already in effect.

If you cast Levitate on a willing creature (valid target) and lift him ten feet in the air, and then he changes his mind and becomes an unwilling creature (invalid target), he's still levitated - the spell is already in effect.

If you cast Shillelagh on a non-magical oaken cudgel (valid target), turning it into a magical oaken cudgel (invalid target), the effect remains - the target was valid when the spell was cast.

For what it's worth, the Main FAQ also addresses this issue:
If, while under the effect of a spell that depends on type
(such as hold person), my character is transformed into a
different creature type by polymorph, does the spell’s
effect remain?

Yes. A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target
when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via
the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Voadam]

My goal is to understand the nuances of this position (and I'm not sure what you mean by "losing cred"). Until this conversation, I hadn't even considered the possibility of dead bodies being animated through animate objects; to me, that's what animate dead was for. The notion that corpses are objects for the purposes of spells is foreign to me (but apparently I'm the only one). At this point, I just want to understand all the implications of this concept.

For one, as Voadam mentioned, shrink object becomes a very convenient way to hide a dead body, or at least makes the process easier. No way to cast mage armor on a corpse, according to Hypersmurf. No protection from [whatever] spells either. I wonder: does that mean any spell that specifically targeted a creature before it died would end as soon as it died? After all, the corpse, no longer being a creature, is an invalid target.

No imprisoning an enemy after they're killed. No preventing someone using discern location to find a corpse (without divine intervention). No dismissing or banishing extraplanars once they're dead. Presumably, a cadaver would be potential raw material for fabricate.

Objects in your possession are considered part of you for spells so to prevent a corpse from being found via discern location cast mind blank on someone and have them carry the corpse (in a bag of holding or rolled up cloth under a shrink object spell).

Dead creatures count as objects that must be carried for teleport spells and can be the targets of a teleport object spell.

Trap the soul makes sense in targeting "one creature" and having the effect of "Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem."

All target "dead creature" or "corpse" spells make sense regardless of whether dead creatures are considered creatures or objects.