Annoying Elves

[Barak]

Dude.. I'd totally love for an elf to call me (I usually play humans or dwarves) a monkey. It'd give me the perfect excuse to fling my poo at him.

Which, giving their frailty, would prolly kill him.

Good grief I hate elves.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't dispute that, but I do dispute that it's possible to find rude sorcerers with no social skills who are also charming, admired, pillars of society. I guess what I'm getting at is that the definition of Charisma in the RAW precludes inviduals who are blatantly rude and offensive from having a high score in that ability, as the ability measures personal magnetism - and it's a pretty tough sell that being a brutish, rude, intentionally insulting, bigot is somehow highly attractive to the population at large (which is exactly the argument that several people have made).

Unless he's with a group of like minded people, such as other arrogant elves. Which this elf, generally isn't.

 

[jdrakeh]

Unless he's with a group of like minded people, such as other arrogant elves.

Very true. I wish that there was a hard-coded system to represent this kind of thing in more games. I mean, nearly all games utilize hand-waving mechanics such as arbitrary modifiers or adjustable difficulties to address the issue of social parallax (including D&D 3x). I wonder if there is a system out there that addresses such issues with hard-coded rules? If memory serves correctly, Orkworld may have covered this ground in some detail, but it has been a while since I've read that game so I can't say for certain.

 

[fiddlerjones]

Joe is lucky to have such a creative player in his group and I think you all should engage him in some good role playing.

That would be true if portraying elves as arrogant or elitist was creative in the least. We have all agreed that this is a stereotype, and I personally have no problem with stereotypes if they're done WELL, which this one does not seem to be. It is too exaggerated. I could see playing an elf who, without directly insulting his companions, gives off a general air of superiority and is condescending when they ask him questions.
At least he's not playing an anti-stereotype, which annoys me more (chaotic good drow anyone?). Still, he needs to tone it down and play a character, not a race. This is the problem I see with elves and other races. People focus too much on the fact that they're elves.

As far as charisma goes, yes it is possible to be an intolerant jerk and have high charisma, but this guy clearly isn't doing that, as no one seems to like his character. The key point of this is being LIKED. Furthermore, it has little to do with ranks in bluff or diplomacy. I seriously doubt that the jerk at a party that gets all the girls has had any diplomatic training or has done any serious research on people's perceptions and how to fool them. It's an innate thing, he's just got an air about him. He's charming. That is all.

 

[Aaron L]

I don't dispute that, but I do dispute that it's possible to find rude sorcerers with no social skills who are also charming, admired, pillars of society. I guess what I'm getting at is that the definition of Charisma in the RAW precludes inviduals who are blatantly rude and offensive from having a high score in that ability, as the ability measures personal magnetism - and it's a pretty tough sell that being a brutish, rude, intentionally insulting, bigot is somehow highly attractive to the population at large (which is exactly the argument that several people have made).

Just because you have the ability to be more charming than others does not mean that you will choose to do so.

Also, being a rude jerk is not a case of lack of Charisma, it is a choice. Someone with low Charisma will be unnassuming, unable to make impressions on others, and forgettable. They will not stand out. The loud, obnoxious jerk is likely to have high CHA, or else he would be ignored.


And apparently the elf in question is doing nothing more than responding to insults from the rest of the party. Why is he being singled out as being rude and arrogant?

 

[Sejs]

With regards to the original post - you don't have to kill the elf, though, after long enough I could see where the prospect would be tempting.

Nah, instead just tell him to drop the attitude or get lost. If he's so superior and you all so devolved, he can certainly get by on his own with absolutly no help whatsoever, right?

Right?

Just have the smartmouthed little twonk put his money where his mouth is. Put up or shut up. *nod*

 

[Diremede]

If I were you, I'd drag that scrawny little elf around by his hair and then slap him around with the flat side of me axe. If that didn't straighten up, I'd cut off the tips of his long skinny ears and call him a little human.

Course this is coming from a dwarf.

 

[Voadam]

I don't dispute that, but I do dispute that it's possible to find rude sorcerers with no social skills who are also charming, admired, pillars of society. I guess what I'm getting at is that the definition of Charisma in the RAW precludes inviduals who are blatantly rude and offensive from having a high score in that ability, as the ability measures personal magnetism - and it's a pretty tough sell that being a brutish, rude, intentionally insulting, bigot is somehow highly attractive to the population at large (which is exactly the argument that several people have made).

Rude, arrogant, no social skills but with intense force of personality and physical attractiveness fits a high charisma.

Being an admired pillar of society is not a trait of charisma according to the definition

From the srd:

CHARISMA (CHA)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Funeris, I wish I was in your campaign. Sounds like it would be alot of fun to play an elf. I always like role playing the underdog. Being uneq is also fun so being the only elf in alot of the cities would really let that character stand out from all the humans.

And when that character meets another elf that encounter is that much more potent.

Fighting off extermination with low odds of survival seems very romantic/heroic to me.


When i role-play elves, i tend not to play them as arrogant @$$ holes, but understanding and wise. Longer lived races (that are commonly good) in my opinion would see generations of humans fight and kill each other for fickle reasons and the elves would realize going to war for greedy kings is not heroic or brave. Thus they would live similar to how races of the wild shows them and would explain why they are usually chaotic good.

Most elves that think they are superior to humans probably (if I were to role play them) Might think they are better then humans… but trying to convince one of superiority is a fatal mistake. An elf would not say he is better. He would show the human through action and ideas that he is clearly better. He would leave it to the human to only use empty words to try to explain to another how amizingly awsome he. he would let humans talk the talk, but chuckle when they fail to walk the walk.

 

[jdrakeh]

Rude, arrogant, no social skills but with intense force of personality and physical attractiveness fits a high charisma.

If you ignore the qualifier of 'personal magnetism' then you are absolutely correct. If you include it, then you are not. Personal magnetism is not solely a function of appearance, otherwise it would not have warranted a separate mention in the SRD, but rather a function of attitude (i.e., social gravity).

Being an admired pillar of society is not a trait of charisma according to the definition

No, but it is an argument that has been made on this thread (i.e., the argument has been made that one can be a crude, shallow, asshat and simulatenously possess a magnetic personality that is admired by others). And I'm saying that this argument only holds true if you ignore certain qualifiers for 'Charisma' present in the SRD.

Of course there is that qualifer near the end of the definition that effectively renders 'personal magnetism' moot (as that trait is entirely dependent upon social perception), which make me wonder why it is included as a qualifier at all if, in fact, it doesn't ultimately matter.