Annoying Elves

[jdrakeh]

Just because you have the ability to be more charming than others does not mean that you will choose to do so.

This is true - however it is equally true that if you choose not act charasimatically, then you should not reap the benefits associated with being charismatic. The argument that you have just posed is no different that saying that a classically trained swordsman who chooses not to fgiht with a sword should still rteceive the benefits as though he were (fighting with a sword, that is). Why should a character who deliberately exhibits repellant behavior receive the benefits specifically associated with another kind of behavior that is not being exhibited (i.e., charming, magnetic, behavior)?

Also, being a rude jerk is not a case of lack of Charisma, it is a choice.

I agree that it is a choice, but I also think that it is a choice denoting a low amount of charismatic appeal. Honestly, the truth of this is evident in the original post. All of the Elf's travelling companions want to murder him in his sleep. That is not a hallmark of being highly charismatic. People tend to like highly charismatic individuals. Point is, this Elf may have a high Charisma score, but he's anything but highly charismatic in the eyes of everybody that meets him, because he takes pains to act very uncharismatically.

That is, a high Charisma score =/= highly charismatic behavior. This is a great example of why numbers aren't the be all, end all of characters in RPGs. Numbers can't quantify behavioral traits in a productive manner.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Actually, in our very FIRST encounter with elves in Tolkien, in The Hobbit, they are a gentle, merry, noble people. (That is, when Thorin and Company came to Rivendell.)
Their welcome to the dwarves is huge, their hospitality grand, their racial slant non-existent, and their demeanor almost syrupy sweet.

So they took elves, in Dungeons and Dragons, and made them more like Thranduil's wood elves.
One has to wonder what would have happened if Thorin had not died. All out war between Lonely Mountain and Mirkwood, that's what: and it would have been the elve's fault, too. They imprisoned the dwarves, they kept them imprisoned, they marched on Lonely Mountain to get their hands on the treasure, and Bilbo sold out his friends to them.

If your player is playing his elf as bigotted, elistist, and otherwise insufferable, consider that he has had endless inspiration from Tolkien, other authors, D&D authors, and D&D supplements.
After all, we all know how welcoming the Elves of Evermeet and Evereska are to non-elves and half-elves.
We know how welcoming the Elves of Celene and the Lendores are to non-elves.
We all know about the oh-so-friendly behavior of the Silvanesti and Qualinesti (even towards their elven friends the Kagonesti.)
We know of the friendly nature of Athian elves.
We know of the friendly nature of Aebrinian (Birthright) elves.
We know of the friendly nature of the Elven Imperial Navies (Spelljammer.)

Hmmm ... makes elves are real likeable lot, no?

 

[Banshee16]

I think you're missing the point - I meant to imply that, according to the RAW, it isn't possible for a rude, abrasive, racist jerk to have a high charisma as the two concepts are mutually exclusive (well, as the RAW defines Charisma, anyhow). Your 'charismatic elf' ain't charismatic if he's constantly talking down to people, ridiculing them, or frequently standing on the racial superiority soapbox. He's a jerk. It's a case of ability score not at all reflecting character behavior.

Why is that not possible? Tonnes of people are two-faced. Perhaps he's rude with people who actually know him, but when he wants to charm someone, the mask goes on.

I wouldn't be one to punish good roleplaying. I ran a noble human in a game that was similar to that....but over the course of the campaign, he gradually learned the error of his ways, learned he had to rely on his companions, and that they had value. As a result, there was personality growth for the character over the campaign.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Actually, in our very FIRST encounter with elves in Tolkien, in The Hobbit, they are a gentle, merry, noble people. (That is, when Thorin and Company came to Rivendell.)
Their welcome to the dwarves is huge, their hospitality grand, their racial slant non-existent, and their demeanor almost syrupy sweet.

So they took elves, in Dungeons and Dragons, and made them more like Thranduil's wood elves.
One has to wonder what would have happened if Thorin had not died. All out war between Lonely Mountain and Mirkwood, that's what: and it would have been the elve's fault, too. They imprisoned the dwarves, they kept them imprisoned, they marched on Lonely Mountain to get their hands on the treasure, and Bilbo sold out his friends to them.

If your player is playing his elf as bigotted, elistist, and otherwise insufferable, consider that he has had endless inspiration from Tolkien, other authors, D&D authors, and D&D supplements.
After all, we all know how welcoming the Elves of Evermeet and Evereska are to non-elves and half-elves.
We know how welcoming the Elves of Celene and the Lendores are to non-elves.
We all know about the oh-so-friendly behavior of the Silvanesti and Qualinesti (even towards their elven friends the Kagonesti.)
We know of the friendly nature of Athian elves.
We know of the friendly nature of Aebrinian (Birthright) elves.
We know of the friendly nature of the Elven Imperial Navies (Spelljammer.)

Hmmm ... makes elves are real likeable lot, no?

You'd probably be pretty friendly too if some bunch of upstarts invaded your lands, burned down your home, repossessed your property, and then didn't understand why you were upset .

Sure, humans can excuse themselves by saying that this was generations and generations ago...but to the elves, that was last week.

Banshee

 

[Sejs]

Actually, in our very FIRST encounter with elves in Tolkien, in The Hobbit, they are a gentle, merry, noble people. (That is, when Thorin and Company came to Rivendell.)

Erm, maybe my memory is sketchy here, but I thought the first time we met elves in The Hobbit was in Murkwood.

You know, where the elves were a bunch of drunken jerks who chucked everybody into prison.

Or did that come later? You'll forgive me, it's been a while.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

People can't be annoying in it??

No. Not in my campaign.

 

[Sejs]

You'd probably be pretty friendly too if some bunch of upstarts invaded your lands, burned down your home, repossessed your property, and then didn't understand why you were upset .

Sure, humans can excuse themselves by saying that this was generations and generations ago...but to the elves, that was last week.

That's one of the things that always gets me about the portrayal of elves. Particularly as such just like they're humans plus.

Get this: Even to elves, it was still hundreds (etc) years ago. It wasn't last week. You were still around then, but it was a long, long time in the past. Lots of thing have happened since then.

One of the benefits of having a lifespan measured in glacial ages is your perspective broadens somewhat. You realize that nothing lasts forever and that the nature of existance is to change. Sure a forrest burns down, but that doesn't mean another one won't grow. Sure you lost a house, but eventually you would've lost it anyway. Sure your friend died, but he would've died at some point no matter what you do. Don't get angry over what's past, or if you do, let it go after a while. Celebrate what was and move on. Nobody can shoulder an eternity of grudges. You can't live your life if you're too busy being mad at every transgression that's ever been.

Spend your whole time bitching about the thorns and you'll miss the roses.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Erm, maybe my memory is sketchy here, but I thought the first time we met elves in The Hobbit was in Murkwood.

You know, where the elves were a bunch of drunken jerks who chucked everybody into prison.

Or did that come later? You'll forgive me, it's been a while.

Nope. Bilbo and the Dwarves end up at the Last Homely House (Rivendell) in Chapter 3 'A Short Rest' long before they get to Mirkwood.

But you did have me confused too for a moment. Time to reread a classic I think.

 

[Voadam]

Very true. I wish that there was a hard-coded system to represent this kind of thing in more games. I mean, nearly all games utilize hand-waving mechanics such as arbitrary modifiers or adjustable difficulties to address the issue of social parallax (including D&D 3x). I wonder if there is a system out there that addresses such issues with hard-coded rules? If memory serves correctly, Orkworld may have covered this ground in some detail, but it has been a while since I've read that game so I can't say for certain.

Do you mean like racial reaction modifiers as found in the 1e PH and UA? I think the Valus Campaign 3e setting has a similar chart.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Get 'Em!

Should we kill the elf and take his money?

You're hesitating. Punk him before he catches on.