Annoying Elves

Krynn wasn't exactly without hope. They did win.

It's somewhat embarrassing, as I look back from my position now fifteen years later, that my introduction to D&D came about because of elves. Well, it was actually a novelisation of E.T. that exposed me to the game (which I bought a copy of shortly thereafter), but I thought elves were so great in that game (it was the UK printing of the Third Edition D&D Basic Set, the "red box" although this was one thick A5 book) that I got hooked on Dragonlance's "Elven Nations" trilogy shortly thereafter, and that led me into the wider world of those novels and eventually back to the game, as AD&D this time.

I'm probably an unusual D&D player in that I had never read anything by Tolkien before I was exposed to bastardised versions of some of his ideas in D&D; I still haven't bothered to finish The Lord of the Rings nor The Hobbit and likely never will.

As a young boy I grew up instead on my father's science fiction collection, and the closest I came to fantasy was an abiding interest in classical mythology from Greece, Rome, and Egypt, and reading C.S. Lewis' elf-free "Chronicles of Narnia". While I thought elves were cool at the age of ten and for a few years thereafter, I quickly outgrew it (probably because they come off badly as a culture in the Dragonlance "Chronicles", and weren't all that loveable in the "Elven Nations" trilogy either).

Since I've been serious about the game itself, I don't think I've ever felt an inclination to play an elf or had much time for them in any campaign; the only exception that comes to mind is playing an elven cleric of Annwn the Celtic death god in a Planescape campaign, and I think the only reason he was an elf was because the Celtic deities were loosely associated with them in On Hallowed Ground, or such is my memory at the time.

Now I also really like all of the elven cultures from Eberron, but I think it's fair to say that they're interesting because they're nothing like the standard, pseudo-Tolkienesque treatment of elves in D&D. Had I been into Dark Sun more when it was still being published I might have found those elves pretty intriguing too, for the same reason.
 

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jdrakeh said:
Very true. I wish that there was a hard-coded system to represent this kind of thing in more games. I mean, nearly all games utilize hand-waving mechanics such as arbitrary modifiers or adjustable difficulties to address the issue of social parallax (including D&D 3x). I wonder if there is a system out there that addresses such issues with hard-coded rules? If memory serves correctly, Orkworld may have covered this ground in some detail, but it has been a while since I've read that game so I can't say for certain.

GURPS has plenty of "social" advantages and disadvantages that modify how others react to you. Apart from Charisma and Appearance, it has Reputation, Social Stigma (if you are a member of a mistrusted or hated minority), Social Esteem (if you are a member of a well-respected group), Intolerance (if you can't stand certain other people... or all people Who Are Not Like You), Odious Personal or Racial Habits (like constantly insulting members of other races), Social Status, and much, much more...
 

and it's a pretty tough sell that being a brutish, rude, intentionally insulting, bigot is somehow highly attractive to the population at large (which is exactly the argument that several people have made).

Tarrell Owens is all over the news.

Baseball season's over, but have we forgotten some of the jerks we've seen there? That the national attention has been focused on?

Eminem won a grammy.

Actors (people who make a living off of their charisma) are notoriously abusive.

People love counterculture. People love a rebel. People love being *challenged* (or at least when someone else challenges something they don't like).

Brutish, rude, insulting bigots are the meat and potatoes of the fixation of entire nations -- they are able to attract that attention and gain respect, admiration, accolades, and awards for it. Being a total fnordhole can go hand in hand with being charasimatic enough to be a star. In fact, it tends to.
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
Concerning D&D elves and half-elves, I think Elaine Cunningham has done a great job of fleshing them out with her novels Elfshadow, Silver Shadows, and Evermeet: Isle of Elves.

I disagree. I think she's partly responsible for creating the elven racial superiority stereotype.

I also think Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend laid out the heart and soul of Faerunian elves in their books and supplements concerning Myth Drannor.

I haven't read that many of Greenwood's books - I don't really like his style - but I did read Elminster in Myth Drannor, which had lots of elves, obviously. Again, there was this racial superiority nonsense, but at least it was clear that only the elves believed it, and it wasn't actually true.

Faerunian elves are as lofty and noble as any of Tolkien's elves. They are an intense people in every sense of the world. They are passionate, driven, and full of angst. They are beautiful and terrible, mighty and tragic, joyous and sad. They are bigger than life, grander than grand, more deadly and violent than war, more fey and wild than faerie.

No I don't think you're exaggerating. I think you're illustrating the elven problem better than I ever could.
 
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Threads like this make me wish that Forrester was still around. :)

Edena_of_Neith said:
I think you hit the essence of High Elves as I conceive of them squarely on the head of the nail.
My Haldendreevan elves are like that currently, with a few extra details added in ...

Concerning D&D elves and half-elves, I think Elaine Cunningham has done a great job of fleshing them out with her novels Elfshadow, Silver Shadows, and Evermeet: Isle of Elves.
I also think Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend laid out the heart and soul of Faerunian elves in their books and supplements concerning Myth Drannor.
Faerunian elves are as lofty and noble as any of Tolkien's elves. They are an intense people in every sense of the world. They are passionate, driven, and full of angst. They are beautiful and terrible, mighty and tragic, joyous and sad. They are bigger than life, grander than grand, more deadly and violent than war, more fey and wild than faerie.
If you think I exaggerate, read the books and supplements written by Cunningham, Greenwood, Schend, Salvatore, and others. You won't be disappointed by the Faerunian elves.

Actually, one of the things that annoys me most about Faerunian elves is that, in terms of gameplay mechanics, they're no more powerful than any other race. Yet the Forgotten Realms novels (and many of the suppliments, particularly during the 2e days) love to portray elves as the best at everything they do. Elaine Cunningham in particular seems to love writing elves as being superior to everyone else.
 
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Doomed Battalions said:
Playing in Joe K's Shackeled City campaign and we have this one guy play an elf Wizard, he plays the elf as a real snob and know it all. Plus he compares all non elves to monkeys. Is this annoying? Should we kill the elf and take his money? How are elves played in your games?

Scott

:confused: OMG, I've had players like that. It can really go two ways: one way is that it's good role playing and it makes the story interesting. One player of mine loved elves, but as soon as any PC, or NPC (non elf of course) would talk to him, you're immediately looking at him through his nose he had it so high in the air. While annoying to the point where you wanted to smack his character, he at least cooperated and the game was more colorful becuase of the roleplaying effort.

However
if the Player acts that way as a player not just the character that creates serious problems.

:\ I almost had a group break up because the guy in it (gold elf) was as egotistical as a gold elf in person. Needless to say it was like taking part in Big Brother. The other players would discuss and plot while not gaming, and the Gold elf became more paranoid. In the end he always had to take his rests invisibly (back in the days when Inviso lasted 24 hrs), and hidden near the party.

The group didn't break up though, one night one of the PC's discovered where the Elf was sleeping (under the stone horse) and promptly commanded it to *sit*...Problem solved.
 

(humor)

You better hope Forrester doesn't show up.
After all, when the 1st IR occurred in 2001, the idea that the humanoids have classes and levels was a new concept, just getting started.
Now, humanoids have classes, levels, prestige classes, special skills, vile magic, optional abilities from Unearthed Arcana, and of course feats and skills.

The NEXT time Forrester comes around, woe betide all the elves!

For anyone interested, Forrester was a being who was a mix of many humanoid types (not a mongrelman, though.)
In the IR, Forrester united the humanoids of Faerun against the hated elves, then went on a campaign of extermination against them. Eventually he besieged the elves of Evereska and (unlike the phaerimm) destroyed them (ate them, too.) Then he went after Evermeet, and did that island in next. Finally he went after (well, they came after him, but nevermind that) the Elven Imperial Navies of many Crystal Spheres, and defeated them.
After that, the elves of Toril decided ... well ... um ... there weren't any elves of Toril.

Why did Forrester do this? Well, he WAS a humanoid, and perhaps he hated elves for that.
But Forrester always said that elves were insufferable, arrogant, elitist bigots whose very existence was an affront to all the more reasonable, civilized races (he included dwarves, gnomes, humans, and the like in his civilized races terminology.)
Forrester said he would put a permanent end to the elitism, snobbery, high-handedness, and insufferability of these arrogant pointy-ears ... and he did!

(serious)

I am a fan of Elaine Cunningham, Ed Greenwood, R.A. Salvatore, and Steven Schend. I am also a fan of Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. And there are a number of other FR and DL authors I have read and like, and I apologize to them for not remembering their names and placing them here in honor.
I think the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance settings are great, and wish to say so.
Now, perhaps, not all of the elves of these settings are the way I see High Elves (Oh, where are you going, with beards all a-wagging? No knowing, no knowing ...)
But who can read about Arilyn Moonblade and Elaith Craunobar, Coronal Eltargrim and the Srinshee, the noble and doomed defense of Myth Drannor and Qualinost, the heroism and tragedy of Laurana, Tanis, the story of Zaknafein and Drizzt, and not be moved?
 

Doomed Battalions said:
Playing in Joe K's Shackeled City campaign and we have this one guy play an elf Wizard, he plays the elf as a real snob and know it all. Plus he compares all non elves to monkeys. Is this annoying? Should we kill the elf and take his money?
It's never wrong to kill an elf, and dividing up his ill-gotten gains is only just payment for a service to the community at large.

How are elves played in your games?
Since elves are only played by violent sociopaths and the criminally insane, any time someone tries to roll up an elf, we zap them with a tazer again and again, until they promise to roll up a different character or until they lose control of their bladder and we throw them out for piddling on the rug.
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
But who can read about Arilyn Moonblade and Elaith Craunobar, Coronal Eltargrim and the Srinshee, the noble and doomed defense of Myth Drannor and Qualinost, the heroism and tragedy of Laurana, Tanis, the story of Zaknafein and Drizzt, and not be moved?

The same way you can read about non-elven race heroes and be moved.
 

Well, Forrester would have had Tanis for breakfast, Elaith for lunch, and Eltargrim for dinner. He would have had Drizzt for dessert.
Arilyn he would have spared ... IF she agreed to use magic to become fully human.
That was Forrester. The ultimate Anti-Elf.

Forrester, is the reason elves have bladesingers and arcane archers! :)
 

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