Another "Armor as DR" Thread

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Alright, I've once again house-ruled myself into a corner, and I'd like to turn to this community for help.

Currently, my House Rules are sitting on three variants that I think are generally superior to the standard D&D rules-- Armor as DR, Class Defense Bonuses, and d20 Modern style Damage Thresholds. For various reasons, I am not using them as described in Unearthed Arcana; chief among these reasons is that I do not like armor providing any bonus to Defense (especially when combined with CDB) and I think that characters with more armor proficiences should generally have less Defense, and not vice-versa.

Generally, I like the idea that prowess makes characters harder to hit, while equipment makes them more resistant to damage. (Though, it's possible to get DR from sheer toughness, as well.) I also like the interaction between damage-reducing armor and MDT-- armor not only makes characters take less damage, it protects them from making as many Massive Damage Saves.

So, with that explanation out of the way, I would like to describe my current rules set-up (and then ask for help on making it better):

• Armor values are derived from the values in the PHB; armor provides one-half its value (rounded up) as x/adamantine DR and half (rounded down) as damage conversion (turning lethal damage into subdual damage).
• Natural armor uses the same progression, though I could implement the reduced rates suggested in Unearthed Arcana instead.
• Natural and manufactured armor do not stack.
• Some weapons have the quality Armor Piercing, allowing them to ignore the DR portion of armor. (Effectively making said armors x/adamantine or armor piercing.)
• Characters wielding Light melee weapons may take a single attack as a standard action, at a -4 penalty, to ignore armor completely.
• Unlike in Unearthed Arcana, magic armors do not add their enhancement bonus to Defense; instead, they simply increase the armor's value and recalculate DR and Conversion.

Unfortunately, I'm having some problems with this system.

• Armor is disportionately useful to Undead and Constructs.
• Creatures with large natural armor bonuses are practically invincible, but increasing the ratio of Conversion to DR simply makes them far more likely to fall unconscious. This would be... weird.
• The rules are too complicated for smooth play in combat.
• Taking a -4 to hit to ignore DR 4 and Conversion 4 is too little, but taking -4 to ignore DR 2 and Conversion 2 is too much.
• Tracking the interactions between armor-piercing and adamantine weapons vs. normal and adamantine armor is a pain in the ass. These rules also make adamantine equipment (and 16th level Monks) disportionately powerful.
• I cannot figure out a good system for handling magical armor-- most of my solutions have either been too powerful or too weak.

Basically, my design goals here are:

• Have armor reduce damage taken by characters a fair amount for the gp and feat investment.
• Provide a small tactical element with weapon choices against armored vs. unarmored targets.
• Allow finesse and ranged fighters to still be relatively effective against armored opponents without using Sneak Attack.
• Give adamantine weapons and armor a substantial advantage without making them unbalancing.
• Give magical armor a substantial advantage without making it unbalancing.
• Make certain that heavier and more expensive armor is generally more effective, and that each increase in magical bonus provides a benefit.
• Allow characters with natural armor to enjoy the benefits without becoming unbalanced-- possibly allowing for characters to benefit from both natural and manufactured armor.
• Do all of this in a way that doesn't bog down combat.

In an earlier attempt to create good Armor as DR rules, I simply negated the AC portion of the armor, but I felt that this made too many armor types redundant. I've also tried having magical armor apply directly to DR, but this quickly made high-level armored opponents nearly invincible in melee-- or especially at range.

I've also strongly considered Alternity-style random armor protection, but I think that it would slow combat down too much, for too little benefit. I've also considered giving every weapon a specific AP value that negates only so much armor, or giving every weapon a specific AP die that determines how much armor the weapon negates that attack. Unfortunately, I think all of these options would also slow combat down too much.

So... can anyone (especially others interested in Armor as DR) help me out?

 

[DanMcS]

I've also strongly considered Alternity-style random armor protection, but I think that it would slow combat down too much, for too little benefit.

Did you play alternity? In my experience, random armor didn't slow the game down much at all, because you roll the defender's armor at the same time as the attacker's damage. Actually, all types of armor in alternity had 3 DR values, versus different attack types, so this would be even simpler than the alternity way. It's what I've gone with in my house rules, and I think it solves several of your problems:

Archers, light weapon guys, etc have a better chance of damaging their opponent, versus very little with the static armor DR.

This way, you can have magic from the armor apply directly to DR, ie full plate +2 gives DR 1d8+2. This is exactly equivalent to the bonus of a weapon enchantment, so magical armor isn't overpowered.

For armor-piercing, have you considered just giving each AP weapon a flat value? Say a heavy pick is AP 2. They roll 1d6+strength+misc for damage, apply DR, but take away two points that would normally be DRed and apply them as damage.

Regarding ignoring DR, you could have the penalty to attack someone and ignore their armor be equal to the original armor bonus. If they're wearing full plate, they can attack at -8 to-hit to go for an exposed face, underarm, or whatever, but if the person is just wearing boiled leather, it's only -2 to-hit.

At this point I'm basically brainstorming, so I'll get back to this later.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Did you play alternity? In my experience, random armor didn't slow the game down much at all ...

It's something I've been concerned about, and something that people keep warning me about. It's why I mentioned it.

I actually played a whole lot of Alternity, including converting several fantasy campaign settings to it. I didn't really stop until several months after Third Edition came out.

This way, you can have magic from the armor apply directly to DR, ie full plate +2 gives DR 1d8+2. This is exactly equivalent to the bonus of a weapon enchantment, so magical armor isn't overpowered.

I'm still not entirely certain of that-- functionally, it's the equivalent of adding it straight to the DR, just without the static DR rating.

For armor-piercing, have you considered just giving each AP weapon a flat value? Say a heavy pick is AP 2. They roll 1d6+strength+misc for damage, apply DR, but take away two points that would normally be DRed and apply them as damage.

Yeah, I have. Are you suggesting that all AP weapons would reduce DR by 2, or that each AP weapon would have its own value? Either way could be workable.

Regarding ignoring DR, you could have the penalty to attack someone and ignore their armor be equal to the original armor bonus.

This isn't bad. This isn't bad at all. Hmm.

At this point I'm basically brainstorming, so I'll get back to this later.

Thank you.

 

[DanMcS]

I'm still not entirely certain of that-- functionally, it's the equivalent of adding it straight to the DR, just without the static DR rating.

Yeah, but I'm not convinced it's a problem either way. The magical enhancements to damage are much better than magical enhancements to armor. For a +1 to armor, you get +1 DR. For a +1 to a weapon, you can get a straight +1 to-hit and damage, or +1d6 damage, which outclasses the +1 to armor by 2.5 points. Either way. Plus, there are feats to increase damage (PA, specialization, whatever), but none to increase armor DR.

I'd be more worried that armor is underpowered in a DR system- especially versus a two-handed power attack, losing 8 points of armor class in return for 8 points of DR is not a good trade. The base defense bonus helps. But that's why I've reduced power attack to +1 1/2 damage for two-handed wielders.

Magical armor is better than nonmagical weapons, but it probably should be, shouldn't it? Armor, and AC as a whole, is pretty much the underdog in normal 3.x D&D. By high levels, you pretty much hit with your first attack unless you roll a 1. That's why hit points escalate fast.

Yeah, I have. Are you suggesting that all AP weapons would reduce DR by 2, or that each AP weapon would have its own value? Either way could be workable.

I would give each weapon its own value. 2 was just an example.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Plus, there are feats to increase damage (PA, specialization, whatever), but none to increase armor DR.

Fair enough, yeah. I just need to keep an eye on other sources of DR, and make sure that armor and natural armor don't stack. (Or follow Alternity stacking rules.)

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

... I've been doing it backwards this entire time.

Armor takes its natural armor value and divides it in half. Half, rounded down, becomes X/adamantine DR. Half, rounded up, becomes damage conversion. Magic armor adds its enhancement bonus directly to damage conversion and adds 1 DR every 2 levels. (Rounded down, so at +2 and +4.)

Armor piercing weapons don't bypass the DR portion of the armor. They bypass the damage conversion.

Adamantine weapons bypass the DR of non-adamantine armor. So, an adamantine armor piercing weapon utterly ignores any kind of non-adamantine armor. As it should be. (Creatures with massive natural armor will have to have a good chunk of their natural armor removed and replaced with toughness DR. I'm thinking Dragons, specifically, and some dinosaurs. I'll come up with a formula.)

Adamantine armors prevent adamantine weapons from bypassing your DR and prevent non-adamantine AP weapons from bypassing your conversion. They also add the original adamantine DR value to your armor.

With Strength bonuses, Specialization, and magical weapons, a dedicated dagger fighter should be able to push some damage through an armored opponent's defenses, especially since daggers are going to be armor piercing. They'll still have the bypass option, using the rules you mentioned earlier-- with the armor's enhancement bonus adding to the attack penalty.

Of course, a dedicated dagger fighter should eventually proceed into Invisible Blade and/or Duelist, giving him much better ability to... well, shank anything that gets in his way to the tune of Massive Damage Saves.

This still leaves Constructs and Undead benefiting considerably more from armor usage. I'll have to work this one out a little more.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've been thinking of implementing AP values for weapons, myself.

At the moment, I use a very slow progression of Defence, based on BAB, along with the DR system from UA, and drastically reduced amounts of magic items 'lying around' or up for sale. Well, there are a bunch of other house rules too, but that's all the relevant stuff, I think.

What AP bonus do you assign to each type of weapon, and what's your reasoning in each case? (Just curious).

I'm also tempted to give armour types different levels of vulnerability to say, piercing / slashing / bludgeoning weapons, and so on. But that might prove too complex. The current setup runs pretty smoothly, I've found, but I do want more detailed 'crunch' in combat, one way or another - though preferably with no extra rolls required. It can certainly be a fine line, eh.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

What AP bonus do you assign to each type of weapon, and what's your reasoning in each case? (Just curious).

So far, I've been running it as "is" or "is not"-- with "is" weapons ignoring the DR portion of armor. I was dissatisfied with that.

Now, I'm using "is" or "is not" with "is" weapons ignoring damage conversion; I find this more satisfactory (in theory, at least) because it still maintains a solid benefit for armor, even if the main benefit goes away.

 

[Nifft]

I think more use of DR penetrated by slashing, piercing, etc. would be nice.

E.g.:
Chainmail: DR 3/piercing
Heavy Shield: DR 2/bludgeoning
Tower Shield: DR 4/--

-- N

 

[Aus_Snow]

Heavy Shield: DR 2/bludgeoning
Tower Shield: DR 4/--

Aiieee! Shields w/ DR? Blasphemy!