Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[malraux]

Because doing this is silly, since even posting a character you create can, technically, be considered IP infringement.

I'm not convinced that is correct.

 

[Admiral Caine]

SIDE NOTE: As far as "common sense" here's a site that has been up forever for Exalted 2nd edition... on the site are the Charm Cards for Solar Exalted, Dragon-Blooded Exalts and Lunar Exalts. That's all the powers from 3 different books, along with great character sheets and rule cheat sheets... yet for years there have been no C&D's from WW for the site to take the cards down. I'm assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that WW recognizes sites like these help promote their game and cultivate the "hobby" aspect as well.

exalted sheets

That is a good point, even though I usually don't go for "well they did it, so it must be okay" argument. But I agree.

An earlier poster, Clatsclaw I believe, was replying to Azigoth and made the point that PowerCards could somehow be used in a manner which would allow people to play the game without actually buying it. Much like the old SRD could.. to an extent.

But that's not very realistic in this case, and the Exalted Charm Cards are a good example.

It's really extreme to think that people are going to Reverse Engineer the 4E game system from Power Cards alone. I realize that prior to Core Rules release last year that fans did do a lot of that sort of stuff with the Shadowfell quickstart rules, but with the books readily available now- its a different situation.

Let me use a metaphor using auto parts.

The Manufacturers and Sellers of auto parts protect their products from theft because-
1.) It costs money to produce them
2.) They want to sell them.

I guess you could argue-
3.) Some guy could theoretically cobble them all together into a real working car! And then not buy a car!

Yeah, it could happen. But I don't see that as the overriding concern for why auto parts stores protect their inventory. If you're going to rip off a car, you're going to rip off a car. You're not going to do it by swiping spark plugs and hubcaps.

And to step through the metaphor.. If you're going to pirate a game rulebook, you're going to pirate a game rulebook. Not Power Cards.

If as a vendor you're going to sell Power Cards, you're going to want to make sure no one gives Power Cards away for free.

NOW.....

As I have said before, WOTC is completely within their rights. No argument. No complaint.

(And lest someone is skimming this post, I in no way advocate piracy!)

But let us not make up reasons for why they're doing this. WOTC is doing it because it is their property and they want to sell it. That argument needs no further embellishment.

They want to sell Power Cards.

White Wolf was not interested in doing that, so they could see how the free Charm Cards made their books easier to use, and how they added value to their game system.

 

[Ourph]

Because doing this is silly, since even posting a character you create can, technically, be considered IP infringement.

What facts do you have to back that up? Each WotC book has a copyright statement at the front that clearly tells people they aren't supposed to reproduce the material contained inside. I can find no evidence that WotC has ever made a similar public statement claiming it violates their copyright to create a character based on their rules and post it to the web.

 

[Imaro]

What facts do you have to back that up? Each WotC book has a copyright statement at the front that clearly tells people they aren't supposed to reproduce the material contained inside. I can find no evidence that WotC has ever made a similar public statement claiming it violates their copyright to create a character based on their rules and post it to the web.

I'm not an IP lawyer... so I can't answer this in a definite, but if we are assuming WotC is enforcing their IP and trademarks to the fullest extent... Here's a few questions I honestly am not sure about...

1. Are the names of Paragon Paths their IP? If so I can't use these...even though every character eventually takes one.

2. If my character is from the Forgotten Realms, and his backstory uses elements from that campaign setting, am I using WotC's IP when I write it up?

3. Aren't the specific names of powers WotC's IP? So how do I list what powers my character has?

4. Are the names of specific magic items in their books IP?

5. Are the specific names of feats their IP?

Anyway these are just a few of the extremes, off the top of my head, that can arise when taking it to the level of WotC enforcing it to their fullest extent.

 

[Treebore]

What facts do you have to back that up? Each WotC book has a copyright statement at the front that clearly tells people they aren't supposed to reproduce the material contained inside. I can find no evidence that WotC has ever made a similar public statement claiming it violates their copyright to create a character based on their rules and post it to the web.

Actually it would be. Depending. If you use a "character sheet" created by WOTC? Yes, it would be a violation, we only have permission "for personal use only", publishing it on the WWW with uncontrolled distribution is not "personal use only".

Also, even if you create your own character sheet format, you still need to be sure not to use any terms WOTC has covered by copyright, otherwise you will still be in violation of copyright.

You can likely successfully argue "Fair use" when your distributing it among your friends with whom you game, but when you put it up on the WWW its no longer "fair use" or "personal use", so your then flirting with copyright violations.

So if you put a sheet up on a private website, or via a private chat board, your probably fine with "Fair" and "personal" usage, but when you put things up to where anyone can use it? Your going beyond the scope of "Fair Use" as well as "personal use".

Even private chat boards don't fully protect you, thats because when you go beyond a certain number of people you arguably become a club, or similar "public" entity, and WOTC could go after you then as well.


DISCLAIMER: No, I am not a lawyer, and am in no way offering "legal advice".

 

[malraux]

In general lists of things are not copyrightable, though the specific order might be. The other thing is that forms are made to be filled out, so posting an example character sheet should be safe. that is, clearly the intent of the phb is to teach someone to create a character, so doing so for personal use is a legitimate use of the phb.

Writing a background might be problematic, I'll grant that.

 

[El Mahdi]

...Anecdotal only I understand, but this makes me convinced 4e is not the master of the market place.

I almost completely agree with you. I'd say that right now, 4E is probably master of the market as far as RPGs go, but not necessarily master of the gametable.

No matter how much people want to spin it, whether fans for or against, or WoTC themself, if 4E can't become entrenched as the game of choice for a majority of players, for actual play at the gametable, 4E will not succeed. I personally think 4E's success is far from decided. Time will tell, but I think it's still in the balance, and could go either way.

Even if sales right now show 4E as king, if it doesn't become master of the gametable, that will not remain true.

 

[dvvega]

Originally Posted by mxyzplk
Why can't Wizards come out and state it?

They do not have to come out an state anything regarding their IP and intent to protect it. Copyright Law is immediately enacted the minute they put pen to paper.

Regarding the character sheet analogy.

1) Wizards would easily be able to defend Copyright Infringement if you printed your character sheet with complete power card write ups, and full explanations of all your feats to a public medium such as a website.

2) They allow reproduction of the character sheet as stated in their manuals for personal use. This does not include you putting it on a public website since it then becomes public use.

3) It might be harder for them to contest a character sheet that showed no mechanics (how to use the sheet, how your AC was derived, etc) and listed only the power names and types. Since these would not be enough to reverse engineer their game system.

D

 

[El Mahdi]

The problem is that if WotC doesn't defend their trademarks now, they cannot defend them later. There is a principle in law that amounts to, "You let me do it before, you can't start complaining now"- WotC simply doesn't have the option to ignore known large-scale infringement.

Defending their trademarks only applies toward logos and such being used on the site. Definitely something worth defending, but only a portion of what was involved.

Verbatim text is Copyright material, not Trademark material. You do not lose the right to defend your copyright if you don't pursue those violating it. With Trademarks you can. AFAIK, even if WoTC let the site continue to use Copyright material for an extended period of time, and knew about it, they could at anytime decide to exercise their rights under copyright law.

Trademark and Copyright are two very different and distinct things.

Logos and such are Trademark. Creative works such as text from a book are Copyright.


edit: Ooops! I see that RedBeardJim already brought up this point. My Bad!

 

[Keefe the Thief]

What i learned from this thread:
- Putting 1800 power cards on the internet helps to cultivate the hobby, whatever that means.
- Master of the Gametable is not a substitude phrase for DM.
- There are still people out there typing stuff like "$e" to fight the man.