Another Multiclassed Caster Fix

[comrade raoul]

Consider these two feats. Note that these are designed for games without prestige classes, and they're specifically not intended to be used with "+1 spellcaster level" prestige classes like the Loremaster. If you use such classes, include this limitation with each of the feats: "Classes that provide advancement in spellcasting classes are not counted for purposes of this feat."

Arcane Dilettante [Special]
You continue your arcane training when engaging in other pursuits.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells, levels in at least two classes.
Benefit: For purposes of determining your arcane spellcasting ability (including caster level, spells per day, and, if applicable, spells known), you are treated as though you were a number of levels higher equal to half of your total levels in other classes. However, the number of levels in other classes you may count towards this feat may not exceed your actual levels in your arcane spellcasting class (that is, you may not increase your effective level in your arcane spellcasting class by more than 50%). You do not gain any other benefits from higher level in your arcane spellcasting class (such as bonus feats, bardic music, or familiar advancement). The benefit of this feat can apply simultaneously, to multiple arcane spellcasting classes.
For example, a wizard 4/fighter 4 with the Arcane Dilettante feat has the spellcasting ability of a 6th level wizard. A sorcerer 6/rogue 4/monk 4 has the spellcasting ability of a 9th level sorcerer (since no more than six levels in other classes can count towards this feat), and a sorcerer 8/bard 7 has the spellcasting abilities of an 11th level sorcerer and a 10th level bard.

Mystic Theurgy [Special]
You can pursue expertise in both arcane and divine magic simultaneously.
Prerequisite: Arcane Dilettante, ability to cast both arcane and divine spells, levels in at least two classes.
Benefit: For purposes of determining your divine spellcasting ability (including caster level, spells per day, and, if applicable, spells known), you are treated as though you were a number of levels higher equal to half of your total levels in arcane spellcasting classes (only).
However, the number of levels in other classes you may count towards this feat may not exceed your actual levels in your divine spellcasting class (that is, you may not increase your effective level in your divine spellcasting class by more than 50%)
You do not gain any other benefits from higher level in your divine spellcasting class (such as turn undead or wild shape). Note that unlike the Arcane Dilettante feat, only arcane spellcasting classes can provide a benefit. The benefit of this feat can apply simultaneously, to multiple divine spellcasting classes.
For example, a wizard 4/cleric 4 with the Arcane Dilettante and Mystic Theurgy feast has the spellcasting ability of a 6th level wizard and a 6th level cleric. A wizard 8/cleric 4/druid 4 has the total spellcasting abilities of a 12th level wizard, a 6th level cleric, and a 6th level druid (the wizard levels improve both cleric and druid spellcasting ability, but no more than 4 wizard levels can count towards either). A druid 6/bard 5/monk 2 has the spellcasting abilities of an 8th level druid (as the monk levels do not count).

 

[the Jester]

I think your system gives way too much to multiclassed casters. I have a feat chain involving arcane synergy for a sorcerer/wizard, but it certainly doesn't give you spells. The whole point of multiclassing is that you give something up; with your bard/sorcerer, especially, you can gain a lot of caster levels.

Why do you think that multiclassed casters need more levels? A wizard 4/cleric 4 is as powerful as a cleric 8, in my experience, they just have to pick the role they're going to fill and aim at it with their spell choices and whatnot.

 

[DreamChaser]

So far as I can tell the only spells that suffer from multiclassing are fireball, burning hands, cone of cold etc. for which the casters level determines damage dice and ability to overcome spell resistance.

that is less than 25% of the total spells a wizard can know and an even smaller percent of cleric spells.

If you multiclass as an arcane magic user, don't expect to be the parties artillery. Choose a different role. You'll see it works okay.

DC

 

[comrade raoul]

A wizard 4/cleric 4 is as powerful as a cleric 8, in my experience, they just have to pick the role they're going to fill and aim at it with their spell choices and whatnot.

I just disagree here. Counting domain spells and excluding cantrips and orisons, a wizard 4/cleric 4 can cast (per day) 4 1st-level cleric spells, 3 1st-level wizard spells, 3 2nd-level cleric spells, and 2 2nd-level wizard spells (for a total of twelve spells). A cleric 8, on the other hand, can cast 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd-level spells, 4 3rd-level spells, and 3 4th-level spells (for a total of sixteen spells); the wizard 8 can cast 4 1st-level spells, 3 2nd-level spells, 3 3rd-level spells, and 2 4th-level spells (for a total of twelve spells).

This means that the multiclassed caster (without Arcane Dilettante and Mystic Theurgy) loses total spells per day with respect to the pure cleric and has just as many as the pure wizard. And, of course, he's limited to second-level spells when the pure casters can cast 4th-level spells, he's got a significantly worse caster level, and he loses out on bonus feats, familiar advancement, or turning undead. Could you explain to me how the wizard 4/cleric 4 is "just as powerful" as a wizard 8 or cleric 8? What role are they going to fill, and how are they going to do it?

The whole point of multiclassing is that you give something up

Yes, that's true. The problem is that I believe (and others do as well -- this issue has been discussed at length) that multiclassed spellcasters are excessively punished by the D&D class system.

The reason for this has to do with the fact that spellcasting classes gain abilities in a subtly different way than nonspellcasting classes. Most nonspellcasting classes gain abilities in a more-or-less linear sort of way: that is, an extra level at higher levels represents a comparable increase in power to an extra level at lower levels. Fighters are a good example here: the two levels from fighter 4 to fighter 6 yield exactly the same benefit that the two levels from fighter 14 to fighter 16 do: a single bonus feat of choice. Barbarians, rogues, monks, and rangers (front-loading and similar issues aside), are all fairly close to this phenomenon, although they don't have quite the linear advancement that fighters do.

Spellcasting classes, on the other hand, have exponential growth: higher levels have increasing marginal benefits. For example, compare the difference between the boost in power from wizard 4 to wizard 6 and the boost from wizard 14 to wizard 16. Over these levels, both wizards get a bonus feat, two more caster levels, and some familiar advancement. What spells do they learn? The lower-level wizard gets one more 2nd-level spell and two more 3rd-level spells (plus any bonus 3rd-level spells that his Intelligence qualifies him for). The higher-level wizard, on the other hand, gets one more 5th-level spell, one more 7th-level spell, and two more 8th-level spells (plus, again, any bonus spells). Over two levels, the higher-level caster both gets more spells and much better spells. That is, ask yourself -- if you had the choice between getting 2nd and 3rd level spells or 5th, 7th, and 8th level spells, which would you take?

The point is that the expontential growth of spellcasting classes means that n levels in a spellcasting class are clearly better that n/2 levels in two spellcasting classes, while the linear growth of nonspellcasting classes means that n levels in a nonspellcasting class are roughly as good as n/2 levels in two nonspellcasting classes.

So as multiclassed characters become more experienced and begin to face higher-level challenges, they gain less marginal benefit from the portion of levels in a spellcasting class that they have. These feats aim to address that.

Does that clarify things some?

 

[Thimble the Squit]

Multiclassing Magicians

I like the idea behind these feats but I think they're possibly a little powerful. I'm waiting until I see the Mystic Theurge in play before I pass judgment on how truly obscene such a spellmeister would be but I suspect, from having run a 3e cleric/illusionist, that these feats would make that gnome really quite hard indeed. It would be a no-brainer to take either or both of these feats -- and that, to my mind, suggests they're broken.

My recommendations:

Firstly, implement a house rule (suggested by someone on these boards recently) whereby every class has a Base Spellcasting Level (which determines # dice of damage for your fire ball, ranges and durations, etc, but not how many spells you cast per day or how many you know).

Major spellcasting classes get a "Good" BSL advancement (1 per level), minor spellcasting classes (ranger, paladin) advance at 1/2 level (actually as they do currently) and non-spellcasters add 1/3 level to BSL. BSL applies to all spells cast by that character, regardless of which field of magic is used.

Thus, a wiz10/rgr6/ftr4 has +10/+3/+1 = BSL 14, so he deals 14d6 damage with a cone of cold, but is still limited to 5th-level wizard and 1st-level ranger spells. Similarly, a ftr19/wiz1 gets BSL 7 -- can still throw only 1st-level spells about but he gets 4 magic missiles.

This system is especially useful for bypassing Spell Resistance (a feature which does royally screw up multiclassed spellcasters).

Secondly, limit the first feat to non-spellcasting classes adding their +1/3 BSL to spells per day and spells known (but I'd allow it for divine as well as arcane classes, at least for simplicity's sake). Thus we get a clr7/ftr6 who now gets BSL 9, including those handy 5th-level spells. Call the feat something like Magical Dilettante instead (though that seems to suggest someone who dabbles but isn't actually any good).

Thirdly, create two more feats for additional spellcasting classes, the first adding only half BSL to spells known, etc, and the second applying to all levels. High and very high prerequisites for these, I'd suggest, such as an additional metamagic feat or two.

The limit of class level * 1.5 is a good one, and one I'd definitely retain, otherwise you'll be looking at max spells in cleric, wizard, bard, sorcerer and druid for that clr4/wiz4/brd4/sor4/drd4 (CSL 20) -- which would be truly offensive.

Since it would now cost at least 3 feats (probably much more) to get what you're offering in 2, it becomes a bit more reasonable (and fairly equivalent to the Mystic Theurge class).

How's that sound? Any better? Weaker? More powerful?

 

[Technik4]

I understand the reasons for the "patch"

However, I think your feats are too powerful.

Lets consider your first example, a Wiz4/Ftr4. This character has had 3 bonus feats from the fighter class, 4 feats from regular character levels, and is coming up on both a character feat and a bonus feat from wizard levels. In essence, this character has many feats, so a feat as a "cost" for improved abilities is small.

Now lets compare a Ftr8, Wiz8, and a Wiz4/Ftr4 (with the AD feat).

Ftr 8
Hp: 810+con
BAB: +8/+3
AC: High (heavy armor)
Spells: 0
Feats: 8 (5 bonus fighter feats)

Wiz8
Hp: 8d4+con
BAB: +4
AC: High (magic)
Spells: 4th
Feats: 4 (1 bonus wizard feat)

Wiz4/Ftr4
Hp: 4d4+4d10+con
AC: High (light armor+magic)
BAB: +6/+1
Spells: 3rd
Feats: 5 (3 bonus fighter feats, 1 spent on AD)

Statistically he is superior to either pure build, for the cost of 1 feat (which for this particular character, is a small cost). When you start adding prcs to all builds, the ftr/wiz comes out on top, with a higher than usual amount of spells. In this example he is only *1* spell level (2 caster levels) behind a straight wizard. His benefits are enormous.

Clearly, to balance the feat with this example the requirements must be increased. I am not sure of the best way to go about this. After some thought, I think your feat is too powerful at all levels as written. At lower levels, you endanger the pure wizards, and at higher levels you can get as many as *3* spell levels for 1 feat. Thats 6 levels worth of classes!

To this end I would make it so the feat can at most replace 2 levels of a spellcasting class (but may be taken multiple times). Furthermore, I would add an XP cost towards fulfilling the "cost" of the feat.

Your theurgery feat has the same problem. With the cost of 2 feats, a Wiz4/Clr4 is only 1 spell level behind a pure Wizard or Cleric. Certainly they become more powerful than the pure Wizard, and arguably more powerful than the pure Cleric.

Technik

 

[the Jester]

Hm, well, I'd say that the ability to throw a healing spell or arcane artillery gives a cleric/wizard a certain versatility that either the cleric or the wizard single-classed character lacks. Mixing caster types allows you to ignore the need for certain spells that you might have (a clr/wiz 4/4 doesn't need buffs for his wizard spells if he takes them as a cleric; instead he can concentrate on things like invisibility or Melf's acid arrow).

Also, I think that the fighting classes don't advance in as linear a fashion as you state- in my experience, a fighter's choice of bonus feats at high levels lets him get much better bonus feats. No 1st-level fighter can get whirlwind attack or improved critical, and both of those beat out dodge, power attack or combat expertise any day. Also, it seems to me that most games include custom feats for very high-level fighters- mine certainly does, though I understand we aren't talking about customization (except as regards your feats).

I understand your point; I think the single area where multiclassed casters really take a beating is when they're faced with enemies with SR. There's a sorc/wiz in my game and I've worked up a couple of synergy feats to aid with that problem, but they only work with a caster who has multiple arcane casting types.

Keep in mind that, in going from 4th to 6th level, a wizard can learn spells that deal more damage (assuming a failed save and average con) than he can take without dying; and while the difference between 14th and 16th level is more dramatic on its face, the relative power gain is pretty similar: his highest-level spells are about 1.5 times as good.

Finally, consider that a character with Arcane Dilettante can actually advance multiple caster levels at a time if he's got more non-caster levels. For example, a fighter/wizard 10/4 casts as a wizard 6; he takes two more levels in wizard (F/W 10/6) and suddenly casts as if he's three levels higher.

Anyhow, YMMV, but any feat that every character of a given class or class mix should take is probably too good, imho.