Another solid article - Strongholds

[I'm A Banana]

I've never understood this "I must squeaze every last ounce of combat efficiency out of my character! If I'm not 100% ultra-super combat effective at every second of the game then I fail." mentality.

I really liked this article. I love out of combat stuff like this. But I'm the guy willing to sacrifice a plus or two in order to get the cool miscellaneos items. To each their own I guess.

KM, I'm not going after you. I'm just using your post as my example.

Personally, it's not about squeezing 100% combat effectiveness out of my toon.

It's about playing with the ruleset.

If story stuff is all DM fiat and background material that doesn't matter at the table, I don't want to spend a resource to get it (especially when it may or may not matter). I want to spend resources on things that get used, that I can control, that I get to call the shots of.

Though I do grok the whole "Items can't be bought anymore, so they need SOMETHING to do with their GP!" side of it...and am excited at the prospect of using GP as an RP tool instead of a purely mechanical points-booster.

 

[Destil]

Considering that your party gets about 25 magic items from level 11 to 15, and there are 15 "essential" magical items that the party needs for those 5 levels, I think it's okay to sacrifice one of them for a castle...

You also get enough GP to buy 2 items of each level (the GP for level 4, for example, is enough to buy two level four items), or another 30 items. Even after some consumables, buying one improvement a level would be doable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've never understood this "I must squeaze every last ounce of combat efficiency out of my character! If I'm not 100% ultra-super combat effective at every second of the game then I fail." mentality.

I understand it easily, it's my modus operandi.

That's why it's good when the DM has more control over gear and treasure. I can be obsesesd about as much as I like, if the rule says super-awesome-cost-efficient-best-bang-for-buck item cannot be bought or created, then it's in the hands of the DM to give it out. And the GP I have can indeed go into "fluffy" stuff, since I know I can't buy the good stuff anyway.

 

[Klaus]

If anything, I won't let my PCs buy a castle. They'll have to clear one from their monstrous denizens, and the castle's value will be subsumed into the treasure for the adventure.

I might even do this waaaay before 15th level (more likely at 10th or so... That's "Lord" level, after all... ).

 

[Zaran]

Yeah, that narmed me, too. Like some overzealous editor got halfway through changing it from one to the other and then got distracted.

I also find it a little wonky that a PC is expected to sink so much GP into construction when GP is such a closely moderated resource. I mean +3 armor, or a castle that gives me a non-staking +1 to some CHA checks on the off chance the DM happens to let me make some CHA checks in my castle?

That's kind of a problem with GP in 3e and 4e in general, though.

I do like the article, all told, and it gets me thinking about giving out strongholds "for free" to characters just as a lark. Not sure I would use the rules therein, but it's a useful story item to consider, and I like that there's an article for considering it.

I immediately decided to make it a silver standard when I figured out a 20x20 house would cost a farmer 330 gold. So now 300 spaces in my campaign costs 2500 gold. Which seems to work out great. 300 spaces is not alot of space. That's a three story tower 50 ft in diameter (4e diameters). That's really small for 25 k.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Eh, 300 squares is 75'x100' or 7,500 sq feet. That's about the size of 4 large modern houses. I'd think a peasant house of 20'x20' would be 400 sq feet = 5000 / 7500 * 400 = 267 gp. It is a pretty small house, but if you work out costs you can figure a peasant is probably making on the order of 100 gp/yr if he's kinda poor, maybe a couple hundred if he's prosperous. If he can afford a house worth a couple years wages, then it seems to be in the right ballpark at 5k for 300 squares. Basically your poorer peasants are living about like 3rd world farmers do today in poor areas, probably not a bad analogy. The richer peasant could probably afford 800 sq feet, so maybe his place is 2 stories. Considering your average tract house in the US in say 1970 was around 1500 sq feet (I know ours was and we weren't especially poor) 800 sq feet back in those days was probably a pretty nice pad.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm using these rules now; a 30x30 mage's tower with 25' ceilings works out to be eight stories tall, some 175-200'. It works out to just about the right amount of space for what I want it to include.

 

[Ourph]

I really like this article. It had a lot of rules that I don't agree with, but the underlying ideas were great. I have been subscribing to Dragon since 1981 and I've never expected the articles in there to be perfectly balanced or without flaws. In fact, as optional rules, I expect to modify almost everything I use from the magazine. What I want are options that inspire me with ideas for my game and the Strongholds article did exactly that. The "crunch" may have some details I would change, but it was a great illustration of how strongholds could be handled within the framework of the game's systems (items, rituals, levels, etc.).

My takehome message to WotC about this article is... MOAR!!!! I was considering letting my subscription to DDI lapse in March when it runs out. More articles like this will convince me that it's worth it to keep subscribing.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I like the article a lot. I agree with Riastlin above that if you want to add several special rooms to your stronghold, you'll blow through the 300 squares pretty quickly. Just the minimum for an armory, library, throne room & magical laboratory is 60 squares, or 20% of your stronghold. And, knowing some PCs (not all, though), they will want things on a grander scale, so maybe at least 80 to 90 squares. And, then things like a chapel and prison (what's a castle without a dungeon!!) and pretty soon you're up to half your 300 squares, and you don't even have a place to sleep yet, or hallways to get there!

Very good article overall, though.

 

[The Little Raven]

I'm using these rules now; a 30x30 mage's tower with 25' ceilings works out to be eight stories tall, some 175-200'. It works out to just about the right amount of space for what I want it to include.

My players had recently been given the deed to an estate and they were in the process of digging up construction materials and workers to rebuild the keep. This article will be a huge boon to us, and combining it with the Harrowing Halls DT set will make the piecemeal-add-a-room-at-a-time construction process easier and more visual for my players.

I seriously hope they do a followup to this article, or even include a more detailed set of rules in a future book. And this is from the guy that used to really dislike this stuff because it usually got in the way more than it helped.