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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Amaroq" data-source="post: 5080604" data-attributes="member: 15470">Fair enough, k - I will grant that there are situations where it isn't beneficial, but +8 is probably a lot higher than the "balance" point WotC use for considering L1 to L1. If I recall, the balance point at L1 is either +3 or +4 from primary, depending on who you ask. Running the math on 60% but +4 damage instead of +8, you get:The average damage for Force Orb is:0.6 * ((9+4) + N * (0.6 * 0.6) * (5.5 + 4)) = 7.8 + N * 3.42The average damage for Winged Horde is:(N + 1) * 0.6 * (3.5 + 4) = 4.5 + N * 4.5That puts Force Orb ahead through N <= 3 (though admittedly, its 0.055 ahead on N=3). This is the same argument folks get into re: Twin Strikes and Careful Attack - it turns out that the "base" you assume and the target AC you're trying to hit really matter. So, situation #2 - running the same numbers but having CA on the central target - boosts WH by a mere 0.75 points, while it boosts Force Orb by 1.3 + N * 0.57 ...    (Or, with your +8, it boosts WH by 1.15 while boosting Force Orb by 1.7 + N * 0.81.WH shines in situation #3: a cluster of minions, as it kills 0.6 + 0.6N of them flat out; FO kills 0.6 + 0.36N.OTOH, in the BBEG + Minions case, its a bit harder to quantify - personally I think I'd rather kill 0.36N minions but damage the BBEG by 5.5 points more, though as a controller one could argue your job is crowd-suppression so 0.6N minions but less points to the BBEG might be a better choice.</blockquote>

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