Any decent wizard encounter 1's?

[kerbarian]

Now that Winged Horde is out, a lot of the wizard level-1 encounter spells don't look so good. I'm playing a staff wizard with Winged Horde, Magic Missile, and Enlarge Spell, and I'm comparing the possible encounter spells to the at-wills:

• Astral Wasp: Less likely to hit than MM (vs. Fort) but possibly a few more damage.
• Empowering Lightning: MM + 4 damage and push 1.
• Grasping Shadows: 1 more damage than WH and slows, but it targets all creatures.
• Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation: WH + knocks prone, but it targets all creatures.
• Staffstrike Corrosion: MM, plus possibly Int damage later in the encounter.
• Charm of Misplaced Wrath: Slide and Daze, but likely insignificant damage.
• Conduit of Ice: MM + 4 damage, a possibly-detrimental zone of difficult terrain, and 5 damage at the end of the creature's next turn.
• Burning Hands: Enlarged WH + 5-6 damage, but it targets all creatures, and it's close instead of area.
• Chill Strike: Less likely to hit than MM (vs. Fort) but 4 more damage and dazed.
• Force Orb: Either MM + 4 damage (single target) or WH that may only get to attack one target.
• Icy Terrain: WH + knocks prone, but it targets all creatures.
• Ray of Enfeeblement: Less likely to hit than MM (vs. Fort) but adds weakened.

The options that seem somewhat interesting are:

Grasping Shadows, Icy Terrain, or Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation: Add a minor status effect (slowed or prone) compared to Winged Horde, if you can target without hitting allies.

Charm of Misplaced Wrath: Not effective in terms of damage, but it does add some new capabilities. This is what I've tried playing with so far, and it was useful in two encounters over two levels -- not a great ratio. It was quite nice to have in those two encounters, though.

Chill Strike: Adds a nice status effect (dazed) and a bit of extra damage compared to MM but at the expense of targeting a tougher defense.

Burning Hands: Gives an option for a close attack, and it's decent area damage, but most encounters I'd want to hang back and not use it.

I've only played a couple levels of low-level wizard. Does anyone have experiences with a particular wizard encounter 1 being very effective?

 

[Turtlejay]

I haven't checked the CB, but the preview wizard at DDXP had a nerfed version of Winged Horde that only targeted one creature. Does that make it easier to not always use that one at-will? Is that what you were referring to?

I've seen a few of these in play, and I like Icy Terrain best. My Illlusionist had Grasping Shadows, but I had a tough time finding a good place to drop it. The zone it makes damages allies. OID is great if you have the orb, probably still solid if you don't. If you had a way to make Force Orb hit reliably, it could be my favorite (Elf Wizard, or a magic item that allows rerolls).

Without knowing more about your character, I'd go with Icy Terrain. You can throw it out early to break up charging enemies, or use it to aid in an escape. It is nice for dropping in congested areas, or on top of a group of minions.

Jay

 

[Droogie128]

I haven't checked the CB, but the preview wizard at DDXP had a nerfed version of Winged Horde that only targeted one creature. Does that make it easier to not always use that one at-will? Is that what you were referring to?

I've seen a few of these in play, and I like Icy Terrain best. My Illlusionist had Grasping Shadows, but I had a tough time finding a good place to drop it. The zone it makes damages allies. OID is great if you have the orb, probably still solid if you don't. If you had a way to make Force Orb hit reliably, it could be my favorite (Elf Wizard, or a magic item that allows rerolls).

Without knowing more about your character, I'd go with Icy Terrain. You can throw it out early to break up charging enemies, or use it to aid in an escape. It is nice for dropping in congested areas, or on top of a group of minions.

Jay

Most of those pre made characters had errors in them. The flavor text attached to that winged horde still described it as targetting many creatures. I'm assuming it was just another error.

 

[Amaroq]

Now that Winged Horde is out, a lot of the wizard level-1 encounter spells don't look so good.

Yes. That's called "power creep".

Seriously, though, "Powers don't look so good" is all a matter of perspective. You dismiss "Force Orb", for example, as

Force Orb: Either MM + 4 damage (single target) or WH that may only get to attack one target.

MM: Single target: 2d4+N
WH: Area burst 1: 1d6+N and no OA
Force Orb: 2d8+N, secondary attack for 1d10+N on hit.

Relative to MM, its +4 on average, +8 maximum, plus a good chance to hit every adjacent target.

Relative to WH, its +5 on average, +10 maximum on one target .. and if you do hit the rest of the area, you do +2 on average and +4 maximum to each target.

How are either of those sucky?

Compare to, say, a Fighter encounter relative to a Fighter at-will: for the most part, its +1d8 (longsword) to one target, plus a status effect (e.g., combat advantage). +4 on average, +8 maximum, plus status.

It doesn't have to beat your at-will by a boatload ... that would be a Daily or an Encounter well beyond L1.

 

[Destil]

Winged horde needs to be nerfed.

Fort is only a 'better' defense statistically. It depends on the DM, it's not true in the abstract (though if you're running WotC modules I hear it's pretty much true). Skirmishers and lurkers, for instance, tend to have lowish fort; the cold-based spells that can help deny their moment abilities and stealth are this good in general (you'll want to target fort in those cases).

 

[kerbarian]

Seriously, though, "Powers don't look so good" is all a matter of perspective. You dismiss "Force Orb", for example, as

MM: Single target: 2d4+N
WH: Area burst 1: 1d6+N and no OA
Force Orb: 2d8+N, secondary attack for 1d10+N on hit.

Relative to MM, its +4 on average, +8 maximum, plus a good chance to hit every adjacent target.

I'd compare it to MM only when there's a single target, in which case it's just the +4 average damage (+8 max).

Relative to WH, its +5 on average, +10 maximum on one target .. and if you do hit the rest of the area, you do +2 on average and +4 maximum to each target.

For multiple targets, we need to make some further assumptions. Say the wizard has a 60% chance to hit Ref/Will, there are N adjacent targets, and the wizard's static damage bonus is +8 (that happens to be what my wizard has at 3rd).

The average damage for Force Orb is:
0.6 * ((9+8) + N * 0.6 * (5.5 + 8)) = 10.2 + N * 4.86

The average damage for Winged Horde is:
(N + 1) * 0.6 * (3.5 + 8) = 6.9 + N * 6.9

For N = 1, Force Orb comes out slightly ahead (15.1 vs. 13.8), but it falls behind for N >= 2. The main reason is that with Force Orb, if you miss the primary attack, you don't even get to attempt the secondaries.

Force Orb does have the extra range, but it generally won't win on damage vs. Winged Horde against multiple targets. The best comparison for Force Orb is single-target, vs. MM, and it is superior there... but I'd hope for more than just +4 damage from an encounter spell.

Maybe you're right, that I'm expecting too much from a level-1 encounter power. There are a lot of really nice Invoker encounter 1's that I was comparing against (e.g. Thunder of Judgment, Spear of the Inquisitor, Astral Terror), but Invokers are known for their strong encounter powers.

 

[Amaroq]

Fair enough, k - I will grant that there are situations where it isn't beneficial, but +8 is probably a lot higher than the "balance" point WotC use for considering L1 to L1. If I recall, the balance point at L1 is either +3 or +4 from primary, depending on who you ask. Running the math on 60% but +4 damage instead of +8, you get:

The average damage for Force Orb is:
0.6 * ((9+4) + N * (0.6 * 0.6) * (5.5 + 4)) = 7.8 + N * 3.42

The average damage for Winged Horde is:
(N + 1) * 0.6 * (3.5 + 4) = 4.5 + N * 4.5

That puts Force Orb ahead through N <= 3 (though admittedly, its 0.055 ahead on N=3).

This is the same argument folks get into re: Twin Strikes and Careful Attack - it turns out that the "base" you assume and the target AC you're trying to hit really matter.

So, situation #2 - running the same numbers but having CA on the central target - boosts WH by a mere 0.75 points, while it boosts Force Orb by 1.3 + N * 0.57 ... (Or, with your +8, it boosts WH by 1.15 while boosting Force Orb by 1.7 + N * 0.81.

WH shines in situation #3: a cluster of minions, as it kills 0.6 + 0.6N of them flat out; FO kills 0.6 + 0.36N.

OTOH, in the BBEG + Minions case, its a bit harder to quantify - personally I think I'd rather kill 0.36N minions but damage the BBEG by 5.5 points more, though as a controller one could argue your job is crowd-suppression so 0.6N minions but less points to the BBEG might be a better choice.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd compare it to MM only when there's a single target, in which case it's just the +4 average damage (+8 max).

For multiple targets, we need to make some further assumptions. Say the wizard has a 60% chance to hit Ref/Will, there are N adjacent targets, and the wizard's static damage bonus is +8 (that happens to be what my wizard has at 3rd).

The average damage for Force Orb is:
0.6 * ((9+8) + N * 0.6 * (5.5 + 8)) = 10.2 + N * 4.86

The average damage for Winged Horde is:
(N + 1) * 0.6 * (3.5 + 8) = 6.9 + N * 6.9

For N = 1, Force Orb comes out slightly ahead (15.1 vs. 13.8), but it falls behind for N >= 2. The main reason is that with Force Orb, if you miss the primary attack, you don't even get to attempt the secondaries.

Force Orb does have the extra range, but it generally won't win on damage vs. Winged Horde against multiple targets. The best comparison for Force Orb is single-target, vs. MM, and it is superior there... but I'd hope for more than just +4 damage from an encounter spell.

Maybe you're right, that I'm expecting too much from a level-1 encounter power. There are a lot of really nice Invoker encounter 1's that I was comparing against (e.g. Thunder of Judgment, Spear of the Inquisitor, Astral Terror), but Invokers are known for their strong encounter powers.

Why are you comparing Force Orb to Winged Horde?

Winged Horde was broken from day one. They shouldn't have allowed it. Period. Complaining that an Encounter multi-target power is about as strong as a broken At Will multi-target power doesn't make sense.


You should compare Force Orb to At Will powers that are not broken. For example, Scorching Burst where A) Force Orb targets enemies, Scorching Burst doesn't and B) Scorching Burst doesn't have a rider. Or Thunderwave where it does not target enemies and has limited range, the push does little (except possibly get a foe into flank on occasion).

Force Orb is definitely superior to both of these. And Cloud of Daggers and Chilling Cloud as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

Fort is only a 'better' defense statistically. It depends on the DM, it's not true in the abstract (though if you're running WotC modules I hear it's pretty much true). Skirmishers and lurkers, for instance, tend to have lowish fort; the cold-based spells that can help deny their moment abilities and stealth are this good in general (you'll want to target fort in those cases).

Actually, it is true in the abstract. The reason Fort is so high on average is because of Strength. Most monsters have a decent strength and monsters that are designed to be melee combatants tend to have (but not always) high Strength (and less frequently, high Con). People tend to forget that ability scores modify defenses for monsters (even DM crafted monsters via the DMG guidelines).

DMs rarely throw a bunch of ranged monsters at PCs, it's usually either mostly melee, or a mixture of melee and ranged. One reason for this is due to lack of mobiity for PCs. It's not fun to run a slow moving defender across the board from one ranged attacker to the next. And because of Str, melee monsters tend to have high Fort and even ranged monsters tend to have at least average Fort.

On the other hand, very few monsters have high Wis or Cha and this is why Will tends to be the lowest defense.

Sure, a DM could be atypical and design or use a boatload of high Wis/Cha and/or high Int/Dex monsters, but that would be outside the norm. There are legitimate encounter design reasons why the Monster Manuals and WotC products average higher Fort for monsters.

 

[Elric]

Actually, it is true in the abstract. The reason Fort is so high on average is because of Strength. Most monsters have a decent strength and monsters that are designed to be melee combatants tend to have (but not always) high Strength (and less frequently, high Con). People tend to forget that ability scores modify defenses for monsters (even DM crafted monsters via the DMG guidelines).

...
On the other hand, very few monsters have high Wis or Cha and this is why Will tends to be the lowest defense.

Sure, a DM could be atypical and design or use a boatload of high Wis/Cha and/or high Int/Dex monsters, but that would be outside the norm. There are legitimate encounter design reasons why the Monster Manuals and WotC products average higher Fort for monsters.

While this is a good explanation for why Fort saves are higher than Will saves on published monsters, I don't consider it a reasonable justification. There's no reason monsters should have ability scores modifying their defenses. Just make the non-AC defenses average 12+level, with some higher and some lower as seems appropriate.

Ability scores modifying monster defenses is why there are monsters like the Tarrasque with 32 Will and 49 Fortitude. Not fun!