Any decent wizard encounter 1's?

[KarinsDad]

If Winged Horde is broken what do you consider the Invoker's at wills? Busted to all hell? Winged Horde is very much in line with Divine Bolts or Grasping Shards, weaker in fact. I'd gladly trade the "only enemy" of Winged Horde for the slow effect on Grasping Shards. Grasping Shards is complete own on melee creatures who are at range.

What the heck are you talking about?


Grasping Shards: Target: Each creature in burst
Winged Horde: Target: Each enemy in burst

Advantage: Winged Horde (major advantage)


Grasping Shards: Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude
Winged Horde: Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Advantage: Winged Horde (+2 to hit statistically)


Grasping Shards: Hit: Wisdom modifier radiant damage
Winged Horde: Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage

Advantage: Winged Horde (3.5 extra damage except against undead, so the majority of the time)


Grasping Shards: the target is slowed until the end of your next turn
Winged Horde: the target cannot take opportunity actions until the end of your next turn

Advantage: Neither. This is totally situational, but Slow is rarely helpful except when a foe is trying to run away.


Winged Horde totally owns Grasping Shards.

Sure, if the Invoker (typically low Dex) happens to get a quick initiative and the melee foes happen to be more than 4 away from the front ranks and they have no ranged attacks, he could once in a blue moon prevent them from closing in round one.

Big deal.

I'll take a more damaging area effect attack that can be used every single round against multiple foes over that occasional use any day. Grasping Shards is balanced with Scorching Burst because it has a minor control, but it goes against the worst NAD and does less damage.



As for Divine Bolts, it's behind the Winged Horde curve as well, but much closer:


Divine Bolts: Target: One or two creatures
Winged Horde: Target: Each enemy in burst

Advantage: Neither (the advantage of Divine Bolts to attack up to 2 foes within 10 is offset by the number of times that Winged Horde can attack 2, 3 or more foes in a close burst 1, especially within melee conditions)


Divine Bolts: Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Winged Horde: Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Advantage: Winged Horde (slight advantage, just over +0.5 to hit statistically or 5% more dpr per foe)


Divine Bolts: Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier lightning damage
Winged Horde: Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage

Advantage: Neither (psychic resistance/immunity occurs less often than lightning resistance/immunity at least in the MM, but it's hard to measure all products, especially for feats and synergies)


Divine Bolts: nothing
Winged Horde: the target cannot take opportunity actions until the end of your next turn

Advantage: Winged Horde (Divine Bolts has no control, whereas Winged Horde can allow the Wizard or other PCs to move past a foe or foes protected)


No doubt about it. Divine Bolts is overly potent (borderline broken if not broken for a controller power). It's nearly as powerful as Twin Strike for a non-Striker and has control as well. But Winged Horde is still better and still broken.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If Winged Horde is broken what do you consider the Invoker's at wills? Busted to all hell? Winged Horde is very much in line with Divine Bolts or Grasping Shards, weaker in fact. I'd gladly trade the "only enemy" of Winged Horde for the slow effect on Grasping Shards. Grasping Shards is complete own on melee creatures who are at range.

You can't compare powers from different classes this way. Wizards are balanced with weaker encounter and at-will powers and considerably better daily powers. Invokers have better at-wills and encounter powers but less potent dailies. Wizards also have a considerably easier time buffing their at-wills and encounter powers than Invokers do because its much easier for them to do things like get really effective weaplements. Its also easier in general to use feats to add to the damage types used by wizards.

So, yes, in absolute terms Invoker at-wills are better than wizard ones and WH wouldn't stand out in the invoker's spell list, but it is not really relevant.

Personally I've always favored Icy Terrain as a wizard encounter power at level 1. It is reasonably accurate, does OK damage, and the combination of prone plus difficult terrain is pretty good control. The terrain thing is also nice because it doesn't rely on hitting. There are plenty of situations where just dropping it into an area even if there is one target or even sometimes no targets there currently is useful. Its a good way to mess up things like shifty kobolds and many skirmishers (true it has a harder time hitting them in general but the terrain it creates can often pin them down quite well). The minor action option can come in handy once in a while too if you're just aiming to do damage and your allies need to move through the area. Finally cold is generally a pretty good damage type, though not the best.

Force Orb is not a bad spell. The problem is it really isn't all that well matched to the job the wizard is supposed to be doing. You're a wizard, not a sorcerer, so leave the striking to others.

Chill strike is a possibility and it could be a decent choice, but I'm not that excited about daze at level 1. Now and then it could come in pretty handy but most monsters you'll face at lower levels probably won't care much if they're dazed. Coupled with the fact that its single target vs FORT and I'm not that enthused. If it had range 20 that might make it a bit more interesting. It may however be worthwhile to train it in at say 5th level to use against some of the more annoying leader monsters you start to see popping up, it does work fairly well against those.

Burning Hands I consider to be tactically almost useless. The huge area means its pretty hard to find a time when you can actually use it. In theory it sounds good, but again why are you trying to be a striker? It is just off-mission for a wizard.

Conduit of Ice I'm not sure about. The fact that the enemy can bring the difficult terrain with him to vex your party with could be an issue now and then. The familiar rider might make it a bit more interesting. The 5 damage part could foul up the monster's attack plans a bit, but really if its disrupting them that much 5 damage isn't enough to cause me as a DM to screw up my whole plan. I really would need to see this one in action.

Charm of Misplaced Wrath actually doesn't look bad. Daze plus a good long push and possibly a secondary attack? It seems to pretty much obsolete Chill Strike. Daze isn't GREAT at first level, but if you can push 3 at the same time that helps a lot. Chance to drop an enemy into a pit? I'm all for that every time. Its vs Will so this is just begging to be dropped on a brute which can then deliver a nice whop to another opponent boosted by your implement bonus. I'd seriously consider this and I would rate it as definitely better than WH considering you'll likely get decent use out of it.

OID is always tempting. Prone is not GREAT, but it can be worthwhile. Considering the extra 2 damage you're guaranteed to do its actually not doing horrible damage and it can come in handy to make a zone of minion death if you need to keep them out of a certain spot. Goes without saying the orb makes it better. I think I still like CoMW better overall.

Grasping Shadows is really a lot like Icy Terrain. It offers pretty similar control and damage but against a weaker defense.

Empowering Lighting I don't know, it doesn't really offer any decent control. Push 1 is not THAT great. Once in a while you might get a nice drop into a pit out of that, but its unlikely. Another of the "I'm not a striker" powers.

Astral Wasp is also not that interesting. Again, you aren't a striker.

Overall I'm thinking Charm of Misplaced Wrath is about the best. Icy Terrain and OID are pretty tempting too and Grasping Shadows is competitive with Icy Terrain if not CoMW. Conduit of Ice seems a bit complicated but it could be OK. So far nothing I've seen has really convinced me Icy Terrain isn't still about as good as it gets in this slot.

 

[Elric]

If Winged Horde is broken what do you consider the Invoker's at wills? Busted to all hell? Winged Horde is very much in line with Divine Bolts or Grasping Shards, weaker in fact. I'd gladly trade the "only enemy" of Winged Horde for the slow effect on Grasping Shards. Grasping Shards is complete own on melee creatures who are at range.

Grasping Shards does significantly lower damage than Winged Horde before epic levels. The advantage is larger than the 3.5 Karinsdad noted, because Grasping Shards doesn't get bonuses to damage rolls.

 

[Regicide]

What the heck are you talking about?

Grasping Shards: Target: Each creature in burst
Winged Horde: Target: Each enemy in burst

Advantage: Winged Horde (major advantage)

No. If this is a "major advantage" you have WAAAAY too many people in your party or you're fighting solos way too often and never fighting anything that is ranged. This is rarely an advantage. If you disagree then just go with Divine Bolts.

Grasping Shards: Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude
Winged Horde: Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Advantage: Winged Horde (+2 to hit statistically)

Then go with Divine Bolts. And if fort is 2 higher than will then that would make fort, what, about 0.5 lower than AC on average? I'll take your word for it, but that sounds high.

Grasping Shards: Hit: Wisdom modifier radiant damage
Winged Horde: Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage

Advantage: Winged Horde (3.5 extra damage except against undead, so the majority of the time)

Then go with Divine Bolts.

Grasping Shards: the target is slowed until the end of your next turn
Winged Horde: the target cannot take opportunity actions until the end of your next turn

Advantage: Neither. This is totally situational, but Slow is rarely helpful except when a foe is trying to run away.

If slow means nothing to you other than stopping fleeing mobs then you're just mopping up gimps anyway and all powers are overpowered. For most people though, slowing a mob means the mob can't get to them and beat them up. Very very handy. Especially for, you know, controllers...

Winged Horde totally owns Grasping Shards.

I disagree. My play experience is contrary to what you're saying.

Sure, if the Invoker (typically low Dex) happens to get a quick initiative and the melee foes happen to be more than 4 away from the front ranks and they have no ranged attacks, he could once in a blue moon prevent them from closing in round one.

Soooo... your fights typically start at less than 4 range? Are all your characters blind and deaf?

No doubt about it. Divine Bolts is overly potent (borderline broken if not broken for a controller power). It's nearly as powerful as Twin Strike for a non-Striker and has control as well. But Winged Horde is still better and still broken.

Twin Strike should easily be putting down MUCH more damage, easily twice unless you're somehow consistently hitting 3 or more with WH which isn't likely, and if Twin Striking with a bow it can be done at much better range.

The bottom line is that strikers aren't the least bit threatened by the damage and with the new controllers getting numerous "enemy only" powers and higher damage powers, wizards really are pretty weak for their at-wills and somewhat weak for their encounters. Feeling uber powerful when you toss your daily and feeling like a gimp all the rest of the time just sucks.

 

[kerbarian]

As for Divine Bolts, it's behind the Winged Horde curve as well, but much closer:

Just looking at the base spells, I'd say Divine Bolts is comparable to Winged Horde, and Hand of Radiance is superior. 3 independent targets is significantly better than all enemies in a burst 1 (IMO), for only 1 less average damage.

However, wizards have access to Enlarge Spell and better damage-boosting feats and items (Dual Implement Spellcaster, Resplendent Gloves, etc.). Once you get to epic, there are some crazy things you can do with radiant damage, but that takes a while. So based on the available upgrades, I'd put Winged Horde slightly in the lead.

My preferred fix for Winged Horde, which would make me still want to take the spell but would make it a real decision (instead of the no-brainer it is currently), would be to reduce the damage to 1d6 instead of 1d6 + Int. If it were reduced to just Int damage or to a single target (like the DDXP version), it would be an interesting niche spell but not one I'd ever actually take.

I'm curious where that DDXP version of Winged Horde came from. On one hand, it could be evidence of an impending, severe nerf. Right below it, though, is the pre-errata version of Grasping Shadows (2d8 damage), so it's not clear that the sources for those character sheets are recent.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Whatever, then don't play wizards Reg. Personally I think KD is spot on. Neither "no OAs" nor slowed are really all that great. Either one could be a good effect in the right situation but Grasping Shards does diddly for damage and that ALWAYS counts for something.

Sure Divine Bolts is overall better than Grasping Shards, probably better than Winged Horde too in most cases. I won't go so far as to say its Twin Strike, but its not as far off as you make out. Its 2 attacks at 1d6 + WIS where TS is 2 attacks a 1W with no bonus. The range advantage for TS is definitely substantial but still the majority of combat happens at 10 or less squares. Point is with a WIS mod of +2 or higher damage is about the same and on average the two powers have the same accuracy.

Invokers obviously have darn good at-wills, but you still haven't explained why it even makes sense to compare. Winged Horde in the context of the wizard is a bit overpowered.

Oh, and enemy only is a HUGE advantage in flexibility for any power. Maybe the campaign you play in is nothing but an archery duel but that is highly atypical. Its far more typical for 75% or so of combat to be at melee range and typical initial encounter distances will usually range from a few squares to 10 squares with an occasional encounter starting at long range. Under those conditions it is a big advantage to be able to drop a spell into the middle of a crowd and only hit the enemy. Even if it happens only once in a while its easily justifiable to take a power with a 25% less damage output to get that. Your second at-will can always be higher damaging one for long range use, like MM or something.

 

[KarinsDad]

No. If this is a "major advantage" you have WAAAAY too many people in your party or you're fighting solos way too often and never fighting anything that is ranged.

Excuse me? Being able to put a close burst 1 anywhere on the map and not hit an ally compared to being limited to where you can put a close burst 1 on the map without hitting an ally ISN'T a major advantage? Sorry, but this alone makes your POV totally suspect.

People have wet dreams over "Target: Each enemy in burst" powers. The Defender(s) pull them all in and the enemy only area affect casters hit multiple targets nearly every round. Tactics 101.

Then go with Divine Bolts. And if fort is 2 higher than will then that would make fort, what, about 0.5 lower than AC on average? I'll take your word for it, but that sounds high

....

Then go with Divine Bolts.

I only have MM data that kerbarian compiled, but:

Fortitude - AC: -1.39
Reflex - AC: -2.75
Will - AC: -3.31

AC is about 1.39 higher than Fort. And Will is about 0.56 lower than Reflex and 1.92 lower than Fort (on average). Will attacks rule (AC second, Reflex third, and Fort comes in dead last).

I suspect that MM2 has similar numbers due to the fact that most monsters have decent Str/Con (in order to do melee or to survive attacks), a lesser number have decent Dex/Int (to do ranged), and even fewer have decent Wis/Cha. That's just how it works out.


With your multiple suggestions to go to Divine Bolt, are you backing off your previous claim that Grasping Shards is so great?

I disagree. My play experience is contrary to what you're saying.

Does your play experience consist of Grasping Shards and Winged Horde in the same party at the same time?

I thought not.

Sorry, but virtually nobody is going to agree with you about Grasping Shards. With there being such a large gap between Grasping Shards and Winged Horde, the numbers don't lie in this case.

Note: As Elric pointed out, Grasping Shards does not get bonuses to damage rolls, so it is even less potent compared to Winged Horde than I mentioned.

Soooo... your fights typically start at less than 4 range? Are all your characters blind and deaf?

Soooo... your fights typically start at more than 4 range with opponents without ranged attacks and bunched up together for a close burst 1? How convenient.

My two DMs make our fights more challenging than that (and I know that since I am using spell casters with area affects in both games that I am a player in).


Make up your mind. Does your DM throw a lot of ranged attackers at you so that Divine Bolts is more useful, or does your DM throw a lot of melee attackers at you so that Grasping Shards is more useful?

You seem to be of two minds here.

 

[KarinsDad]

Just looking at the base spells, I'd say Divine Bolts is comparable to Winged Horde, and Hand of Radiance is superior. 3 independent targets is significantly better than all enemies in a burst 1 (IMO), for only 1 less average damage.

However, wizards have access to Enlarge Spell and better damage-boosting feats and items (Dual Implement Spellcaster, Resplendent Gloves, etc.). Once you get to epic, there are some crazy things you can do with radiant damage, but that takes a while. So based on the available upgrades, I'd put Winged Horde slightly in the lead.

Winged Horde is definitely in the lead over Divine Bolts, but not by a lot. At least in our campaigns, the party pulls the melee foes in and Winged Horde would be 2 or 3 foes nearly every round until near the end of the encounter. For example, there are many rounds where foes will try to flank a PC. Bang. Instant 2 foes minimum in burst.


Hand of Radiance, on the other hand, is also basically broken. PHB 2 is power creep over PHB and DP is power creep over PHB 2.

Just because a power exists in a splat book doesn't mean it isn't broken. I consider Divine Bolts to be borderline broken and Hand of Radiance broken. Hitting 3 foes anywhere on the map for 1 less damage each compared to Scorching Burst's limited close burst 1?

Compare it to a Ranger's Twin Strike at mid-heroic (arguably one of the best At Will powers). 2 attacks at D12+ (assuming a Greatbow) and an additional 1D8 (with feat) if one hits. Best shot (if both hit), 2D12+2 + 1D8 = 19.5 damage on average per round (with 3 feats, weapon focus, weapon proficiency and Lethal Hunter). Compared with 3D4 +12 (3xWis) = 19.5 with no feats. Not to mention the fact that a +2 proficiency weapon hits against AC slightly less often (on average) than a power does against Reflex.

No contest. That's major power creep. Add one domain Power of Winter to Hand of Radiance and you've added a potential for 6 more damage per round over Twin Strike with 3 feats. Now, one could argue that Invokers get crappy Encounter and Daily spells, but that's not totally true either.

And, there are ways to make Hand of Radiance good too. Moon domain. Winter domain (Power of Winter, Lasting Frost, etc.). Plus, any synergy that helps with criticals like Just Presence. With 3 attack rolls on many rounds, that's a lot of criticals, especially when combined with the proper items, feats, and/or paragon path.

The only two advantages Twin Strike has over Hand of Radiance is that a) it averages more critical damage, and b) it can be done on the same foe, so it helps Action Economy faster. Granted, area attacks can often hit multiple foes. But, it is rarely 3 guaranteed targets in the equivalent of close burst 10 on most rounds.

Compare Hand of Radiance to Blazing Starfire. Yup, when Blazing Starfire hits 3 foes, it does more damage. When it hits 2 foes, it does slightly more damage (2D4+16 maybe without feats if both hit). But how many rounds can Blazing Starfire be used? Not every round like Hand of Radiance without sometimes being limited to one foe. There are going to be rounds where the Sorcerer decides to attempt 13.5 damage (with a different At Will without feats) to one foe while the Invoker is still attempting 6.5 (without feats) to 3 foes.

One might say: so what? The Sorcerer sometimes does more damage and sometimes does less. But, the Invoker is not a Striker. The Invoker is putting out nearly as much (and in some cases more) damage as the Striker and still considerably more damage than the Wizard, and can still control well when he wants to control and damage well when he wants to damage.

 

[kerbarian]

The only two advantages Twin Strike has over Hand of Radiance is that a) it averages more critical damage, and b) it can be done on the same foe, so it helps Action Economy faster. Granted, area attacks can often hit multiple foes. But, it is rarely 3 guaranteed targets in the equivalent of close burst 10 on most rounds.

Being able to put all the damage on a single target is a big deal. It helps action economy, as you mentioned (which alone is quite important), killing off monsters early lets the players shape the battlefield (more room to maneuver, gets rid of pesky controllers/artillery, etc.), and the damage can always be applied at full efficiency, even when there's only one target in an area.

Hand of Radiance can compete well with Twin Strike for overall damage, but I'd still consider Twin Strike the clearly stronger power. Of course, "weaker than Twin Strike" isn't saying much .

 

[Regicide]

Whatever, then don't play wizards Reg. Personally I think KD is spot on. Neither "no OAs" nor slowed are really all that great. Either one could be a good effect in the right situation but Grasping Shards does diddly for damage and that ALWAYS counts for something.

It's d6 behind WH and has a better added effect. If being d6 behind means it is doing "diddly" then WH is only 3.5 damage more than "diddly". That doesn't even make sense.

Sure Divine Bolts is overall better than Grasping Shards, probably better than Winged Horde too in most cases.

Yes. My point. Winged Horde is merely on-par with the new controller powers.

Calling it broken is, naive to say the least.

I won't go so far as to say its Twin Strike, but its not as far off as you make out. Its 2 attacks at 1d6 + WIS where TS is 2 attacks a 1W with no bonus.

Plus quarry and any weapon bonuses, crit bonuses. And the W can be d12, or brutal or whatever.

Invokers obviously have darn good at-wills, but you still haven't explained why it even makes sense to compare. Winged Horde in the context of the wizard is a bit overpowered.

What about wizards makes it so they should have worse at wills than invokers? Do they have a daily at level 1 that is so good that the other 95% of the time they should be completely overshadowed by the invoker? Not that they do.

Oh, and enemy only is a HUGE advantage in flexibility for any power. Maybe the campaign you play in is nothing but an archery duel but that is highly atypical. Its far more typical for 75% or so of combat to be at melee range and typical initial encounter distances will usually range from a few squares to 10 squares with an occasional encounter starting at long range. Under those conditions it is a big advantage to be able to drop a spell into the middle of a crowd and only hit the enemy. Even if it happens only once in a while its easily justifiable to take a power with a 25% less damage output to get that. Your second at-will can always be higher damaging one for long range use, like MM or something.

You know, you can even have an enemy flanked, drop a burst beside it and still not have any allies in the burst, right? You have to be seriously cluttered with allies in order to not be able to place burst 1s effectively. "Enemy only" is very nice to have and something that wizards are missing out on compared to other classes, but it doesn't put the power over the top.