Any Gestalt rules yet?

[TheGlow]

Been thinking about getting a group going again but we have the dilemma of usually having 2-4 people only, usually never all at once. And on top of that its usually a batch of strikers...
So anyone come up with some good ones?

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Try adding class templates from the DMG to each PC. Gets at the gestalt vibe.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

It's not like gestalt's power level was ever predictable in the first place. You could pretty much do whatever you want. 4e's encounters can scale better now, too. Just use fewer monsters and lower-level elites and solos. Don't worry too much about class composition; I'm in a game with 4 strikers and a defender and we're doing fine.

 

[77IM]

Here are some quick and dirty rules I posted a while back:

I'd add the class skills, hit points, and powers from both classes. Sure, why not? 4 PCs with X hit points and Y powers should be roughly as effective as 2 PCs with 2X hit points and 2Y powers. I'd give them extra action points too: let's say, they start the day with 2 points and gain 1 per encounter, and there's no limit to how many they can use in a single encounter. Also, give them +2 to all saving throws.

Viola! Your PCs are now Elite creatures. Count them double when calculating encounter XP budgets (so 3 Elite PCs would be facing an encounter suitable for 6 normal PCs), but they get half XP (so 3 Elite PCs would each get 1/6 the XP rather than 1/3).

(Note: Instead of half XP, it might be easier to double the XP required for each level. It might also feel more natural that someone with the power of 2 PCs takes 2x as much experience.)

To clarify my proposed rule, the PC would get all the class features, proficiencies, defense bonuses, trained skills, powers, hit points, and healing surges of BOTH their classes. Sound sick? Well, that's kind of the point of gestalt. Here are some further considerations:

• These guys will suffer from crazy MAD (multiple ability disorder or multiple ability dependence), unless you pick combos that gestalt particularly well. This is no different from the 3E system, in which the "overlapping" nature of gestalt made some combos more attractive than others.
• I'm not proposing that they get any extra feats. Many feats will be equally useful to "both" classes of the gestalt, because most feats are "always on." I guess I view feats as somewhat independent of the class progression. Likewise magic items.
• Two paragon paths? Sure, why not! But two epic destinies might get too crazy, even for gestalts (epic destinies are already cheese).
• Offensively, a gestalt seems weaker than two characters, because he gets fewer actions. However, he gets some extra action points to compensate, and may have an easier time creating attacks with good synergy (e.g. Sneak Attack with twin strike).
• Defensively, a gestalt seems much stronger than two PCs, because of his ungodly amount of hit points and healing surges, and stacked class defense bonuses, and saving throw bonus. This is slightly mitigated by the fact that the enemy has an easier time flanking, or putting stun/daze/etc on the entire party (because there are fewer targets)

The defensive focus of gestalts seems like it may slow down combat. But I think the fact that there are half as many players, and that each one has twice as many encounter and daily powers, means that things should go quickly enough and not become boring.

-- 77IM

 

[CapnZapp]

I think a better, more 4E-ish way, of doing this is to apply the DMG's advice for Elite and Solo monsters on the PCs. (Including ways to get more actions and make reactive actions)

So instead of Gestalt PCs, you'd have Elite PCs. Or even Solo ones...

 

[dammitbiscuit]

The 3e gestalt didn't exactly *double* hit points, you simply took the best hit dice of either class. For a 4e gestalt, I'd stick with the same "best of both worlds" philosophy. A warlord/wizard under "best from either class, non-stacking" rules akin to 3.5 gestalt would get 5 hp per level, +1 fort and +2 will, proficiencies from both classes, 7+con surges, etc.

Fights against elites and solos take longer, and like mike mearls discussed at mearls: Solo Monsters and the Risk of Boredom, require extra effort to keep interesting.

Players are already about as dangerous as an elite monster (5 elites vs a party generally results in one quivering survivor from either side standing amidst a field of dead bodies), so I'd hesitate before turning them into enduring, super-buff solos themselves.

But hey, if you're the right kind of DM to challenge demigods who have 2 classes worth of HP, go nuts! Just be aware of what you're getting into.

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

An easy way to make Gesalt rules for 4e would be to give every character one of the multiclass feats for free at 1st level and give the Power-Swap feats for free as they qualify for them.

This method has the benefit of fitting in better with the overall mechanics/math of 4e than 3.5's Gesalt rules ever did. You shouldn't have to adjust encounters too much because the characters aren't really any more powerful just... more versatile.

 

[Masquerade]

I do something similar to what BarkingDeathSquirrel proposes. Every character gets a multiclass feat for free at 1st level and can select powers as normal from either class.