Any HR on learning abilities before level advancement?

[Telsar]

Some background: my current tabletop group is new to 3rd edition, and they recently met a rogue (they being unaware of his class) who assisted them in a fight. During the conflict, the rogue flanked an enemy and did a sneak attack, which I described as taking advantage of the confusing melee to strike the enemy in a vital location. After the battle, a PC asked the rogue if he could teach him how to fight like that. I kind of blew it off at the time, knowing he didn't grasp that it was a first level rogue ability and that you only get new abilities by advancing a level in a class, but the idea of characters being able to learn stuff "in advance", perhaps at significant penalties, has an appeal.

Does anyone have any house rules, or know of any rules from a D20 source, that allows characters to train in specific abilities (class abilities, feats, perhaps new skills) without level advancement? Perhaps with an XP cost. I have my own ideas, but before I make a house rule, I'd like to know what else is out there.

 

[ARandomGod]

Without a level advancement? No...

For some slower advancing games I've had parital advancement actually. Depending on how partial it way, we'd generally divide the skill points and abilities in half or quarters, and grant the abilities incrementally through the level. Of course, this requires that you commit to your next level right away.

If you don't want to tell him "rogue", you could just tell him that if he want's to give up is training in (fighter?) and train in this instead, you'll (the NPC) will teach him. Then divide the skill points and abilities up. A sneak attack of d6 can be split into quarters easily. First quarter one extra point (or D2?), second D3, third D4, fourth D6. You can also give him additional skill points (8/4 is two, so two skill points in rogue appropriate skills every 1/4 level. Intelligence bonus skill points only at the end).

It can be fun. It makes a LOT more sense than learning things all of a sudden... it is slightly more powerful than the normal method of leveling... but it helps make a low level campaign (or just a slow leveling campaign) more interesting and fun. It also requires a LOT of houseruling each time, as you determing what exactly 1/4 or 1/2 of a particular bonus feat might be...

 

[Tonguez]

Sell it to the PCs for 2000xp

(seriously I let bonus Feats be purchased at a cost of 2000xp and count all level 1 class abilities as equivalent to feats)

 

[Goolpsy]

using an xp cost wont work.. because.. the more xp u have.. the more abilities u have acces to... so by giving an xp cost.. u actually reverse the balance.. having MORE abilities at a lower level (with less xp)

just tell him that he can teach him the method.. butit might require him to wander off his path of the fighter.. and if accepts.. then he will have earned the rogue class once they level up

 

[Telsar]

Thanks for the replies. I think the XP cost thing won’t work well; it makes it prohibitively costly for low-level characters, and high level characters can buy lots of abilities. ARandomGod, I like your idea, especially for a slow-moving game like a PBP game; it can take months to advance with those, and having quicker, but smaller, advances could make things more exciting.

As I mentioned, I already had some ideas on the house rule I wanted to create, so I’ve written it up below. Comments, suggestions, or mild criticisms are welcome.


“STUDIED” ABILITY
(I’d like to come up with a better name for this, but for now, this is all I can come up with)

A character can learn, through training or study, a single ability, assuming he has both a teacher and the time to train. For the purposes of this, an ability is defined as one of the following:
1. A feat, for which you meet the prerequisites.
2. A class ability that is normally obtainable by adding one level to a class you currently have (for example, you can learn to do a +3D6 Sneak Attack as a 4th level rogue)
3. A first-level class ability in a class you don’t currently have. This can include prestige classes, but you must meet the requirements for the base class (such as alignment) or prestige class.
4. Gain 4 ranks in a skill, but the skill’s ranks still can’t exceed your normal maximum ranks (3+Character level for class-based skills, half that for cross-class skills)

Learning the “studied” ability requires a week’s effort, and a trainer who already knows the ability. Both the trainer and the student must succeed at a DC 10 Intelligence check (or possibly a different ability score check at the DM’s discretion, such as a Dex check to learn Sneak Attack), or else the week’s training is wasted and nothing is learned. If both checks are successful, the character now has the ability “studied”, but the ability is not as easy to use as it would be for one who gained it through level advancement. Each time the character attempts to use the ability, he must make an ability score check; if it succeeds, the ability works normally. If it fails by up to 4, the ability fails to function, and if the check is failed by 5 or more, the character takes some sort of penalty (DM’s discretion) for failure. This ability check is typically an Intelligence check vs DC 15, but the DM can alter which ability score, if a different one seems appropriate, and can alter the DC if he thinks a particular ability should be easier or harder to use.

For example, a non-rogue character learns to sneak attack for +1D6 damage. Using the studied ability requires a Dexterity check vs DC 15. When attempting to sneak attack, if he rolls 15 or higher on this check, he does the extra 1D6 damage. If he gets a total of 11-14, then the extra damage doesn’t occur. If he rolls 10 or less, he fumbles his attack so that it does no damage at all.

(Note: if the character has a +2 Dex modifier, this results in a 40% chance of doing sneak attack damage, 20% chance of doing just normal damage, and a 40% of doing no damage at all; so, all fairly balanced, IMO)

A character can only have one studied ability at a time. If he trains in a new ability, once it is learned, the previously known studied ability is forgotten. This allows each character in the campaign, if he takes the time and effort, to have one extra ability, with such a random possibility of success that it’s something that will probably only be used in extreme circumstances. It also adds an interesting element to games, giving characters reasons to seek out trainers with specific abilities, perhaps an ability required for a particular mission. I can imagine a PC seeking out training in Blind-Fighting if he knew he would be going up against invisible foes, or Endurance if he were planning a long trek across a desert.

I’m also considering making up two feats to use in conjunction with this house rule:
Quick Study: Allows gaining (or changing) a studied ability in a day’s time instead of a week, and without a trainer. It would still require observing someone with the ability, but that character wouldn’t have to be trying to train him and wouldn’t need the DC 10 check, although the studying character still does.
Expanded Study: Allows you to have more than one studied ability known at a time, up to a limit equal to your Intelligence modifier.

I think I’ll introduce all of this at my next session, and see how my players take to it. Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[Tonguez]

Thanks for the replies. I think the XP cost thing won’t work well; it makes it prohibitively costly for low-level characters, and high level characters can buy lots of abilities.

but thats the point - it is costly at low levels and at high levels there is no point (since under my system it only applies to feats and 1st-level class abilities. so a Level 10 fighter isn't going to give up 2000xp just to get a basic sneak attack...

 

[Telsar]

but thats the point - it is costly at low levels and at high levels there is no point (since under my system it only applies to feats and 1st-level class abilities. so a Level 10 fighter isn't going to give up 2000xp just to get a basic sneak attack...

IMHO, a basic class ability or a bonus feat (especially the feat) is equally useful at all levels. With a 2000 XP cost, it's saying that a bonus feat is equivalent to going from 2nd level to 3rd, but only worth 1/5 of the way going from 10th to 11th. If I was a player in your game, I certainly wouldn't use the option at 2nd level, but once it became economical (say around 6th level), I'd use it from then on. If there's a limit to how often I can use it, say once a level, I'd use it every single level thereafter to get a bonus feat. If there was no limit, well... 3 feats in place of advancing from 6th to 7th sounds very worth it; while my allies advance from 6th to 10th, I could stay at 6th and have... 3+3+4+5= wow, 15 bonus feats. Even at one feat per level, I'd probably only be one level below those not using the option; when my friends are at 20th, I'll be at 19th with 14 extra feats.

I'm not trying to squelch the idea of XP cost per feat, it just seems like it should be a cost based off your current level. Perhaps 40% of the cost of a level, so at 1st level it would cost 400 XP, and at 10th it would cost 4000.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

A couple of things.

Instead of saying only one learned class ability at a time, maybe it's based on his intelligence, perhaps 1 for every +2 modifier (edit: past +1, so that a fighter with 12 INT could st ill learn 1). Thus the fighter has difficulty grasping lots of difficult concepts -- like many college students, he can memorize one or maybe two at a time, but the wizard who has a knack for picking up concepts could even get a sneak attack to +3d6 damage, just by investing enough time in the ability. However, the barbarian with 8 INT won't even be able to pick up one.

On the topic of EXP gain, the cost could simply be 2000* # of abilities learned (2000 for the first, then an additional 4000 for the next, then 6000 for a third). Choosing to lose the ability to pick up another gets you back 1/2 or 1/3of your invvestment.

 

[Felnar]

in Arcana Unearthed there is a varient fighter that gets sneak attack as a rogue would instead of his fighter bonus feats
basically this is: d6 sneak attack = 1 feat
so let the character do that