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D&D 5E Anybody actually TRY soloing the Tarasque...?

ShadowBanks3

First Post
ok so I know there is this big guffaw about the level 5 wizard and all but, how about a level 20 Berserker barbarian (or if u want give him a fighter or monk multiclass) and give him two common magic items (or whatever the dm running thinks that he as a lvl20 adventurer should have at that point realistically) and put him up against the beast with (as a post above stated) a separate pc playing the tarrasque and a neutral party guiding it all. that's the kind of fight i would enjoy seeing. Similar to how my level lvl 16 changeling can solo an ancient red dragon (with luck mind you) I'd love to watch the event just because it would be two insanely powerful animals fighting
 

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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
I have decided that it is going to be pointless to use the Tarrasque to threaten the PCs.

Instead, if I ever decide to use the Tarrasque, the PCs' job will not be to destroy it before it kills them, but to destroy it before it levels a town or city and eats the inhabitants.

Death is not the only way to fail.

I had a plan to use the Tarrasque in an Eberron campaign once, but we never got far enough.

Basically a Daelkyr found out about the Overlords and decided he would try to make one himself. Hence, Tarrasque. Of course, this thing would be far beyond Gargantuan; it be less a monster to fight and more a setting or dungeon. The PCs would have to climb to the top of the thing's head and battle the Daelkyr controlling it and all of its henchmen, all way it advances on Sharn and fights off whatever defenses the city has been able to manage (difficult terrain would be a start). Then they'd have to figure out how to stop it from that point (probably something they'd have figured out before-hand). Still hoping to get to use that someday...

Back on topic, whiterooming the Tarrasque to death is pointless because it inevitably boils down to treating the Tarrasque as a training dummy with zero agency, and therefore it has zero bearing on how the Tarrasque should be used in actual play.

Which for the record I clearly believe should be anything but a statblock thrown at PC's.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Not that the Tarrasque has shown up much in my games (outside of one time I used it as a plot device with level 10 characters in 3rd edition), but I've always said I'd give it a breath weapon if it does show up. Because Godzilla needs his breath weapon.
 

Siuis

Explorer
This is fine, but it's a ruling, not a rule,

This should be viewed as Working As intended, not as an excaption to the proper way of things. I know that's not how you're presenting it, just thought it was worth a say.

Okay, I'm back. That took less time than I thought.

Tarrasque v. Wizard Test #001
The wizard flew 60 feet into the air, the Tarrasque used frightful presence, the wizard failed her concentration check and took 30 falling damage upon hitting the ground. She died shortly after.

Tarrasque v. Wizard Test #002
The wizard flew 60 feet into the air, the Tarrasque used frightful presence, the wizard failed his concentration check and took 21 falling damage upon hitting the ground. He died shortly after.

Tarrasque v. Wizard Test #003
The wizard flew 60 feet into the air, the Tarrasque used frightful presence, the wizard made her saving throw and remained airborn. The Tarrasque reduced the town she had left from to a mountain of rubble. The wizard flew within 60 feet of the titan and sprinkled acid over it. The bubbling fluid was vaporized by the tarrasque's magic resistance. The wizard flew up to about 90 feet above ground. The tarrasque smashed the larger chunks of rubble into smaller chunks of rubble. Hundreds of people died. The tarrasque killed the few survivors shortly after and sauntered up a nearby mountainside. The wizard flew back to a height of 60 feet and approached the monster, throwing more acid at it to no effect. It reacted instantly to her, leaping off the mountainside and swinging its tale as high as it could in an attempt to swat her from the sky, but she was still just out of reach. The tarrasque lands in the pile of rubble with a massive, earth-shattering thud. The smaller rubble chunks become infinitesimal in size. Argh, I'm falling asleep. Gonna stop here for now...

If I have more time I'll try this a few more times, but right now I'm really tired. That's it for now.

According to the SRD here , acid splash has a range of 30 feet. A wizard 60 feet in the air would be ten feet out of range of their target, who is only twenty feet tall for some reason (I'm assuming monster manuals still give more description than the generic reference document though? How tall is a 5e Tarrasque?), which makes this a much different match. The PHB says 60 feet range though, and I trust the books more than the documents... cool.

Has anybody taken into account the fact that acid splash has a 60 ft. range--and the tarrasque, which is 50 ft. tall, has a reach of 10 ft.? So flying above it is useless for this particular test.

Fly 60 ft. in front of it? Sure, that works for a round. Then the tarrasque closes to within 40 ft. and uses it's 20-ft.-reach tail attack. Which knocks the flying guy prone.

There may be tactics where the "flying opponent" thing works (at least in white room theory-craft), but the much vaunted acid splash ain't one of 'em.

Not quite so clear. Fly doesn't have a maximum height given, as I recall.

on the WotC board someone said that and was told they were being rediculas because the tarasque wasn't able to attack on the wizards turn, so then it was pointed out that the big T could ready an action, and people said that wont work...but never a good reason given.

Ready actions don't work the same way they did in prior editions. Much harder to use and abuse. They've actually never come up in my 5e games because of it.

ok so I know there is this big guffaw about the level 5 wizard and all but, how about a level 20 Berserker barbarian (or if u want give him a fighter or monk multiclass) and give him two common magic items (or whatever the dm running thinks that he as a lvl20 adventurer should have at that point realistically) and put him up against the beast with (as a post above stated) a separate pc playing the tarrasque and a neutral party guiding it all. that's the kind of fight i would enjoy seeing. Similar to how my level lvl 16 changeling can solo an ancient red dragon (with luck mind you) I'd love to watch the event just because it would be two insanely powerful animals fighting

Had a (3.5) bard solo a bullete at level 5, once, but barely. Survived only because he remained conscious enough to crawl to a dryad''s tree and beg healing (since. Asking the spell himself would have knocked him out and spell himself etc him bleeding to death before the magic would take).

Anyway. Going to take a Crack at this with my old play test wizard, Tomas. Need to do a proper play and writeup though so I'll be back.
 

machineelf

Explorer
Ready actions don't work the same way they did in prior editions. Much harder to use and abuse. They've actually never come up in my 5e games because of it.

They come up in my games all the time. The NPCs use it against the PCs; the PCs use it against the NPCs. Maybe it's a different style of DMing, or maybe your players are't aware of the ways they could use it to their advantage. In my experience, as soon as one of your players tries to make a ranged attack from behind cover and duck back in a single turn, the NPCs will ready an action for the next time that character peeks his head out from behind cover. The PCs will learn very quickly how to use a readied action to great effect after that, or how one can be used against them.
 


That's what people are SAYING, Paraxis... but I'm not hearing from anyone who's actually DONE IT. Talk is cheap, I want to see some actual attempts at doing the thing.... not saying it can't be done, but the proof is in the pudding.

Why? The whole art of game design/DMing consists in being able to see things before they happen, and shape your game so that the things you want not to happen, don't.

Would you be satisfied by a computer simulation where the computer is playing both sides (wizard and Tarrasque), or do you really need someone to sit at a table rolling dice with themself until either the wizard or the Tarrasque is dead? I.e. does it need to be an actual solo D&D session in order to satisfy you?
 

Paraxis, your math assumes that because it can't counterattack (assuming rock throwing, etc is barred), the Tarasque is just going to stand there while you slowly whiddle down its H.P.... but why would it? Imagine an animal (say, a pig) being stung by a wasp. If it can't kill the wasp, what is that animal going to do, sit there and take it? NO! It's going to flee and try to get away from the little varmit. And so will the Tarasque. At some point, your Fly spell(s) will expire and you will have to land... and that is when the Tarasque will eat your character. Remember, your Wizard can only cast so many Fly spells before having to take a long rest to prepare spells again. He can't remain airborne indefinitely...

And that is why Phantom Steed is better for Tarrasque-killing than Fly is. In fact you can kite the Tarrasque indefinitely using only a regular, bog-standard, 60 gp horse. It has 40' movement, +40' for Dash, +20' for legendary action, so 100' total if it's not throwing rocks or anything. Meanwhile you've got 60' + 60' (Mount's Dash) = 120', without any action cost to yourself. After 50 minutes of fighting you can spend 10 minutes summoning a new steed[1] while your current steed runs away from the Tarrasque some more.

The advantage of a Phantom Steed is that it's faster (200' instead of 100' per round, which obviates any potential issues with Legendary Actions if the DM (rightfully) decides that it's stupid for the Tarrasque to slow down when it's only fighting one opponent) and it's disposable, and probably won't get tired out like a regular horse does.

[1] Yes, it's goofy that 5E lets you cast ritual spells from horseback. Yet another example of how good DMing requires foresight--I don't have to actually play out this scenario in an actual game to know that I don't want ritual spells to be cast from horseback. The time to fix it is now, before the game starts.
 

Siuis

Explorer
Whether the Dash action increases the Tarrasque's movement for its legendary actions too is a matter of ruling. I always assumed it inc free a asked your speed for the round, period; hence, a dashing tarrasque getting 40' out of its legendary movement, not 20'. Anyway.


I decided to reuse an old 2e character who never saw much play, instead of Tomas; I like Tomas and want him to live. This guy was a tool and I'm okay with him being eaten.

Khelendros was a compilation of the character of same name from Dragonlance being cool and amazing, blue dragons in general being amazing, and the thought of a wizard who commanded dragons through respect, fear, and force of intellect was amazing. So I rolled him up using Munchkinry of the Standard Arts and am immediately angry at this guy for such amazing rolls; three 17s, two 15s and a 14. What a waste!





--



Khelendros, the Evoker

[Sblock]
Variant Human Wizard (Evocation specialty) 6, HP: 39, AC: 15 (Mage armor) 20 (shield spell), Speed: 30 (fly 60), Saves: Intelligence +8, Wisdom +5



Strength 15

Dexterity 15

Constitution 18

Intelligence 20

Wisdom 15

Charisma 17



Skills:Arcana, Investigation, Perception, Athletics, Survival (Fallen Scion background)



Tools: Navigator's tools



Feats: Elemental Adept (electric), +2 Int



Gear: Ornate Robes & Cloak, Noble's outfit, survivalist, arcane focus (wizard's staff), component pouch, charmed breastplate (rune of alacrity grants dash as a bonus action once a day).
[/sblock]



--

The fight itself


[Sblock]
So we have this magic user haggling in a city for components and access to a library, when there is a furor as people flee the false safety of their towering buildings for the streets to run; the Tarrasque is coming! The tarrasque is a fifty foot monstrosity and the exact sort of trouble guards dream up being the heroic figure who alerts the town of, so there's no need for close range. The monster is taking its time, and a good distance away.



Khelendros rolls for initiative preemptively (12) and handily beats the tarrasque's own (6). Fair fights and white rooms are for suckers who aren't wizards, so he first scales the outer walls, thirty feet in height, and then casts fly on himself, leaving two remaining 3rd level spell slots.



The tarrasque simply rampages closer; it is now 200' from the city walls. Whatever brush or thatch-roof cottages (TROGDOOOORRR! *ahem* sorry) litter the area are chump change to the beast and any humans have long since fled before the wave of wild animals, panicked, running for their lives.



ROUND 2



Top of the round, Khelendros activates his rune of alacrity* and regards the monster; fifty feet tall, half again as long... he rolls well enough on his intelligence (arcana) check to recognize the primordial beast of the end, the Tarrasque. He knows it shrugs off directed attack magic and resists everything else. His signature lightning is almost useless. His higher spells should be saved to simply keep him alive; acid splash it is! Dash (bonus action) and then kicking off the wall at speed, Khelendros shoots a full 60 feet upward, and then flies out 120* towards the monster. He is now 90' off the ground and 80' away from the tarrasque, which puts him at 90' range.



For its part, the Tarrasque catastrophically fails to notice this vivid blue missile (perception: 4) until it enters the range of its blindsense. Once The wizard does the, Big T decides to eat the birdy. Legendary Movement at the end of the wizard's turn closes the distance to 60' horizontally, and it continues the run, intent on jumping and swatting the thing to the ground.



Quick math check - with a strength of 30, the tarrasque can jump a maximum of 13' up (high jump) and there's no check involved. That rounds to about 15, giving the creature a 'height' of sixty five feet for combat purposes, and a combat reach of 85' – just shy of our airborne wizard.



But wait! A creature jumping can also reach up half its height, for such purposes as grabbing at ledges and such. This means the tarrasque can grasp at an additional 25-35 feet depending on how you read this in relation to it being a long creature. That's just enough to touch the wizard, if not to attack him.



So the Tarrasque tries to grab the wizard***. The Tarrasque rolls a natural 20 on its grapple effort and, surprised, Khelendros doesn't even have time to reflexively use his Shield spell. Attempting to resists, Khelendros rolls his own athletics check (17) and while valiant, isn't enough to escape. Khel's player wants to ague about that extra five feet of reach, and the DM points out that the end of high jump allows an (Athletics) Strength check to exceed the normal height limits, and we could always allow the 20 to be on the jump, letting big T make an actual, damaging attack roll...



So the Tarrasque pulls the wizard downward by the boot, and then spits him out on the ground... except bolstered by his magic, Khelendros doesn't fall but hovers. He now sits almost nose to nose with the boost, in what cinematics would make into a story beat so we can appreciate how terrifying this is... cue frightful presence, which Khelendros fails with a resound (3) on the die. He is now 40' above ground, within melee reach of the Tarrasque and





ROUND 3



Khelendros, frightened almost out of his mind, makes a mad dash for the skies (movement) shooting up to a solid 100' above the earth, and turns to unleash his vitriol on the thing. As he begins to speed upward, the Tarrasque retaliates with an opportune bite attack (24) which Khelendros manages to barely skirt by casting his Shield spell. Close call!



Once khelendros hits altitude, he lets loose a globule of smoking acid (11 damage; DC 16) which strikes the still-snapping beast in the nostril (dex save 8). The Tarrasque is surprised.



On its own turn, it tries another running leap (29) but cannot cover quite that much distance; at an extra fifty feet the wizard is just too high up. Forget surprised; the Tarrasque is now peeved. It finishes its leap by landing and sort of trudging forward on its own momentum. This puts it 50' below and 40' away from Khelendros; the hypotenuse being 65', the Tarrasque is now out of range****.





ROUND 4



Khelendros is keenly aware of his predicament, and that his fear will put what the Akashic Records say should be an easy win into a slugfest on the monster's terms. He grapples with this for what seems an eternity, but is in reality eight additional rounds. Thinking furiously, the wizard allows his turn to pass.



The Tarrasque is not satisfied. It attempts once again to run and leap to snap up this gnat, and once again fails; the DM waives the athletics roll saying Khelendros is simply too high up unless something special happens.





ROUND 5



Khelendros is still thinking furiously, and still failing his saving throws. He cannot really do anything. He cannot move closer to the beast. He cannot attempt to flee the beast, either; its sinuous, shark-like circling means it may trap him as a matter of happenstance in such a way he cannot escape before his spell expires. He cannot ready himself to splash more acid on the beast when it gets closer; not only might the DM say the Tarrasque falls back to earth, finishing its movement before he can use his reaction*****, but holding a spell at the ready requires concentration, and staying airborne is his only life line. He cannot simply fly up and away, because he will be unable to move far enough to lose sight of the thing (altitude extending your visual range and all). He curses the day he read Treantmonk's guide and listened only to "always pick up the Perception skill".



Tarrasque tries one more circle, running, jumping, and snapping futilely, before just meandering to the city to consume it.





ROUND 12



Khelendros finally manages to shake off his terror, maybe because of the indignity of just hanging there, maybe because watching the City become a semi-smoking rubble heap puts his own fear into perspective. Probably because he finally rolled high enough with disadvantage to shake off the condition.



The Tarrasque is only approximately three hundred feet away, as the town wisely unleashed its entire draft-animal and ranch animal supply out into the field where the beasts ran and then froze in terror, and got et. Khelendros spends his turn dashing toward the Tarrasque, maintaining altitude at 100' above ground level. He closes and is now 180' distant.



The Tarrasque, occupied by an easy meal, notices the wizard but pays him no mind. Another twelve horses die to its hunger.





ROUND 13



Khelendros is past the two-minute mark. His fly spell will only hold for another eight, or approximately 79 rounds. Normally an eternity, but in a war of attrition, who knows?



Khelendros moves closer. He is now merely 40' away horizontally, once again just shy of range.



The Tarrasque devours six more horses and a cow. Khelendros thinks the DM is likely goading him by having an animalistic beast seem nonchalant at his presence.





ROUND 14



Khelendros is now ready to act. He moves moves the 40' necessary to hover over the beast and splash it, and he does for (4) damage. The Tarrasque's 0 dex bonus is really going to sink it, here.



The Tarrasque, annoyed, attempts and fails to leap and bite at the wizard.





ROUND 15





Khelendros lobs another blob of acid at the Tarrasque, which shrugs off the magical fluid (17).



The Tarrasque consumes two cows and a horse. It picks up one each cow and horse in its claws, and moves away 40'.





ROUND 16



Khelendros, faster than the Tarrasque, flies directly over its head and once again pigeon-bombs the beast, which avoids it with aplomb (19).



The Tarrasque begins to understand there's a minimum distance the bug needs to be able to sting. It runs away... and turns to lob a cow.



Lobbing a cow is an improvised action. It uses the range increments of the giant's boulder but at disadvantage. The effective distance between the Tarrasque and Khelendros for this throw is 50' up and 40' across, or 65'. The Tarrasque is already firing at disadvantage though, so that subtle difference doesn't really matter.



The Tarrasque manages an amazing natural 20, and Khelendros invokes Shield in response, hoping. No such luck, as the disadvantaged die is enough for a (25), just hitting his armor. The group eventually compromises and settles on improvised damage but with strength mod (24; concentration DC 12), which is almost enough to end the match. Khelendros manages to overcome the shock of being struck by a heifer and maintains concentration (22).





ROUND 17



The cattle finally bolt, their minute of utter terror finally expiring, leaving the Tarrasque with only a horse to throw. It kills it with a squeeze of scything claws and hefts the horse's body.



Khelendros reasons that this is probably the dramatic crux; if the Tarrasque cannot hit with its remaining projectile, he can probably convince the DM to condense the "fight" into sixty-some rolls to see how much damage he does. If he survives that horse he has this Tarrasque thing on lock. So he moves above the beast, and spits acid at it, which singes its hide (6 damage).



The Tarrasque flees 60 feet and turns, lobbing the horse (19), which is handily deflected by yet another Shield. Khelendros is down to a single 1st level slot, and will need to burn 2nd level spells soon.





ROUND 18



Khelendros continues his campaign of closing and acid-etching his legacy in the Tarrasque's hide, and the Tarrasque continues sloughing off any hits the wizard almost lands.



On its turn, Tarrasque uses the dash action and runs. It uses a legendary move to get further away.





ROUND 19



It's been three minutes.



Khelendros continues following the Tarrasque but fails to close the distance; at 50' above and 40' away, the hypotenuse (and his attack range) is sitting at that annoying 65' mark. He retcons a bit after doing the math and uses a Dash to get closer; still no attack but better than losing ground. Khelendros is now sitting above the Tarrasque.



The DM smiles, following this with a legendary movement... toward the city walls******. This puts the creature 20' away, but next to a thirty foot wall! The wizard swears a blue streak at not paying attention to direction and terrain. The Tarrasque uses that legendary movement as part of a running start, clambers onto the stone wall, turns, and kicks off, spraying stones and busted timber all over the city interior. The long jump is easily cleared and adds another seven feet to the Tarrasque's effective height; a fifty foot monster, springing from a thirty foot wall, clearing seven additional feet in its arc (rounded to ten via successful "Athletics check to jump higher" (29), to the table's dismay) is a height of 90' with a minimum reach of 10.



The Tarrasque attacks. As it's teeth close in on the mighty evoker (31) even his final, desperate Shield fails to protect him from what's coming. Whatever remains as the jaws close are quickly dealt with by the resulting tearing of claws (each attack auto-hitting and causing two failed death saves).

[/sblock]





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*: not a canonical item, but the sort of "useless" trinket that shows up in games by about fifth level to encourage players to do wacky things.



**: the rules do not strictly allow a double-move; this is what the dash action is for. Using an action to move, rather than perform an action, is the sort of 3e/4e holdover I find logical, effective, and not unbalancing except in cases where magic items or rogue abilities give you dash as a bonus action. As the only change is how close the city walls would be (and I don't want Big T tripping over rough terrain) inn letting it slide.



***: this is the sort of DM I am and have played with for the last twenty years; where many people argued in 3e that the rules must be read as hard limits, I read a framework. Climbing creatures, leasing giants, shoving monsters onto oil slicks and using the encumbrance rules on moving them, all fair game. Without this style of play, this scenario would be much different.



****: Yes, I use geometry for three-dimensional combat. Always have, always will. The book is silent on this issue, but a strictly standard reading would still the creature at 10 + 8 squares away, beyond the 12 square reach of the spell. I could be convinced to extend the range as the spell drops, but with advantage on the save, though.



******: while a sort of jerk move, not unwarranted. Losing track of terrain when focused on angles and flight is something that's happened to every caster or ranged flier I've ever gamed with. It would only work once, and further tests to see if his was a statistical fluke won't account for it, but outside of a white room, terrain exists, and the Tarrasque is at least as smart as my cat. That kind of cunning would definitely lead a prey animal into compromising its safety zone.



---



My synopsis is that, yes, a single wizard can solo the tarrasque. The logistical issue is strictly about being able to do enough damage to destroy the thing, before all your available slots for Fly are used up. A wizard 6 can't guarantee that; a Drow or warforged warlock/sorcerer can. I'm playing one now who could pull it off, due to some minor chicanery.

The tarrasque is at least as cunning as a house cat however, so it will run, throw things, use cover, create cover, burrow, etc. As it needs to. If there's any terrain anything all, it will utilize it. Not out of intelligence but out of animal necessity.
 

Siuis

Explorer
They come up in my games all the time. The NPCs use it against the PCs; the PCs use it against the NPCs. Maybe it's a different style of DMing, or maybe your players are't aware of the ways they could use it to their advantage. In my experience, as soon as one of your players tries to make a ranged attack from behind cover and duck back in a single turn, the NPCs will ready an action for the next time that character peeks his head out from behind cover. The PCs will learn very quickly how to use a readied action to great effect after that, or how one can be used against them.

I've found weird cases where the readied action doesn'T change the pc's initiative score seemed to cause my players to somehow lose turns, and they quickly changed tack. Instead of wait for the snipers to pop out of cover, they send in fireballs or the teleporting paladin, or destroy the cover, etc.

Why? The whole art of game design/DMing consists in being able to see things before they happen, and shape your game so that the things you want not to happen, don't.

Simply, because tons of things that sound cool on paper fall apart when executed in real life. When the rubber hits the road you find out how your plan reacts with the variables of a dynamic environment and that always changes things. So doing the solo attack instead of theorizing it gives a legitimate example rather than a theory.

And that is why Phantom Steed is better for Tarrasque-killing than Fly is. In fact you can kite the Tarrasque indefinitely using only a regular, bog-standard, 60 gp horse. It has 40' movement, +40' for Dash, +20' for legendary action, so 100' total if it's not throwing rocks or anything. Meanwhile you've got 60' + 60' (Mount's Dash) = 120', without any action cost to yourself. After 50 minutes of fighting you can spend 10 minutes summoning a new steed[1] while your current steed runs away from the Tarrasque some more.

The advantage of a Phantom Steed is that it's faster (200' instead of 100' per round, which obviates any potential issues with Legendary Actions if the DM (rightfully) decides that it's stupid for the Tarrasque to slow down when it's only fighting one opponent) and it's disposable, and probably won't get tired out like a regular horse does.

[1] Yes, it's goofy that 5E lets you cast ritual spells from horseback. Yet another example of how good DMing requires foresight--I don't have to actually play out this scenario in an actual game to know that I don't want ritual spells to be cast from horseback. The time to fix it is now, before the game starts.

I have not met a DM yet that would be swayed to allow ritual from horseback, actually. That seems like one of those "the book doesn't say otherwise" arguments? That said, I can think of at least two works of fiction where it's appropriate, so as long as I can spin it dramatically, it would probably fly.
 

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