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Message: <blockquote data-quote="rounser" data-source="post: 54557" data-attributes="member: 1106">I can say parts of something suck, but that on the whole it's a good game, and mean every word of it.  I doubt you're unable to understand this, it's a pretty simple concept.For instance, I also consider that some parts of democracy as a political model suck.  On the whole I think it's okay, though, and better than the alternatives.It was a statement that 1E is a crappy RPG from someone else that I'm arguing against, not what you said.  Get a clue.A D&D spell is a rules component alright, but not a mechanic.  A mechanic is the "memorise first and forget on casting" system that runs the spells, or the number of spells you get per level.  Declaring entire settings as "rules mechanics with names" borders on stupidity.Bollocks.  You don't get game icons like mind flayers, Vecna and vorpal swords in other games (without conversion), because they're more or less artifacts of D&D (or more specifically, AD&D), and as such part of the game, and the edition which introduced them.  Now who's attempting to have their cake and eat it?That's what new editions are for.  I'm saying that what 1E may have lacked in mechanics was well and truly made up for in the form of monsters, spells, settings etc., and that the debt 3E owes to 1E is so large that to say that all of 1E sucks is to say that a great deal of 3E does as well.And when you say "it sucks" like you did above, without qualification, that is indeed the stupidity you are suggesting.This may come as news to you:Usually, new editions of a game owe a large debt to former editions, otherwise they wouldn't be the same game.Guess what:3E is a later edition of the same game as 1E (with stuff from oD&D as well).So what?  Well, it means I don't fall into your neat little stereotype, and so you can't use it to imply I've never tried 3E.No, this is all about how you are trying to prove that 1E unilaterally sucks because 3E exists (see above) and I'm arguing that that's not so.You likened 1E to a horse and buggy.  To play your silly little game, I likened 3E to a Porsche with wagon wheels attached in place of tyres, because it makes your argument leak.  You don't like that, so you're moving the goal posts.So a lot of 3E is as crappy as 1E because of the huge debt of material it owes to it, and as you've stated above, 1E sucks.The critical thinking is in challenging blanket statements like "1E sucks" or is a "crappy RPG", and presenting arguments to the contrary.  I've done that.  Your blanket statements are the antithesis of critical thinking, and plant you firmly in the fanboy category.Stating that 1E's strengths are not in it's rules so much as in it's material and "toys" (spells, monsters, settings, magic items, NPCs etc) is not vague and unqualified - it's pretty damn specific.  No, you're Mr Vague and Unqualified here, you haven't even mentioned the rules mechanics you object to.I never said that all editions of D&D are equal, and I don't believe it either.You should look after your side of the argument, don't worry about mine. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Whatever you say, buster.Most people reading this thread probably have experience with 1E.  You need to have an argument that makes sense, instead of just saying you're right because "someone who played 1e for years" would know.I think "back in your box" means a lot applied to you.The critical thinking is in challenging blanket statements like "1E sucks" or is a "crappy RPG", and presenting arguments to the contrary.  I've done that.  Your blanket statements are the antithesis of critical thinking, and plant you firmly in the fanboy category.Stating that 1E's strengths are not in it's rules so much as in it's material and "toys" (spells, monsters, settings, magic items, NPCs etc) constitutes criticism of your silly dismissal of all of 1E as "it sucks" based on rules mechanics alone.You spout too much rhetoric.Which system was attacked but isn't being discussed?And I'll stand by mine, that 1E doesn't suck whether 3E is there or not - there's more to D&D than mere rules mechanics.  Your shortsighted views are indeed being disagreed with here.  And I'll go you one better - I back up my points.I don't give a damn what you think - only that you don't present it as fact.It got derailed into comments on "3E rules and 1E sucks" before I arrived.  You're still playing "Let's Pretend", I see.</blockquote>

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