Anyone else think epic rules still need some help?

[Cheiromancer]

We should collaborate in a project for reworking the epic spell system. Not totally- I envision that there would still be spell seeds, for instance- but try to get some of the bugs worked out.

Would anyone else be interested?

 

[ciaran00]

What if casters had an "epic spell DC bonus" every three levels or so? This takes the 20th level ratios and advances them as "poor" saves...

This is assuming that we don't progress to ridiculous spell level heights. Anyone else think that the 0-9 levels should be scaled instead of introducing 10+ level mechanic which will never get any real attention in terms of creative spells? Cancelling magic is still cancelling magic, and damage is still damage.....

Of course, the point is to have a simple fix, instead of a rework. Looking forward to more opinions on the matter...

Here's something I don't understand... why does a Fi 20/Wiz 20 have 4 attacks and a superior BAB with the same number of spells and feats and all that whereas a Wiz 20/Fi 20 has half as many attacks, and 66% the BAB "plus"... everything else being equal... does this make sense to any of you?

The same goes for saves for a Monk 20/Class 20 vs. a Class 20/Monk 20. They're both monks, aren't they? What's worse is that the second guy is STILL a monk but he's LESS of a monk than the guy who is no longer one. Seems to me that they never really fixed the problem of 2nd edition dual-classing

ciaran

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't anticipate my campaign ever reaching epic levels, but should it do so I think I would use the following rules:

No class goes above level 20. You have to multiclass or take prestige classes for subsequent levels.

All saves and BAB add together as per normal. Most people at this level would be expected to have magic items to "cover" their weak saves anyway. Limit on 4 iterative attacks still stands.

Prestige classes that give +1 caster level instead add a new spell slot at one level above their current highest; this can be used for metamagiced normal spells (as per Forgotten Realms epic rules IIRC)

There will be a few EPIC feats available - normally along the lines of "Indomitable Will - automatically succeed at one Will ST per day", "Automatic Silent Spell - all your spells become silent spells at no cost", "Metamagic: Vast Area - the area of a spell is multiplied by 10" and a list of supernatural powers. I want these to be qualitatively different to the normal feats, something that shouts "EPIC" when they are present.

From what I've seen of complaints and concerns about the epic level rules, these simple ones of mine will sidestep problems (e.g. the order in which you took classes) and will certainly see me through levels 21-30 without too much bother.

Cheers

 

[Impeesa]

Personally, I think that if the wiz20-ftr20 paradox is something you need to address in the first place, the best plan is just to count your best 20 levels. In the most extreme case, this is a difference of 10 points. Seems large, but it will become less and less relevant as you get up higher - and such a gap is not reached until 40th level to begin with.

 

[ciaran00]

So where I've ended up is a combination of Impeesa's and Plane Sailing's ideas. Classes go through their standard progressions for levels 1-20 (in spite of being epic). Beyond 20th, the epic progressions for saves and BAB and all that good stuff is implemented. On top of this, I will have an epic power scaling that adds +1 to save DCs that don't scale once every 3 levels.

Everything else should be more or less the same. Thanks for all your suggestions.

ciaran

 

[Kerrick]

You reckon they actually tested them?

*snort* If they did, it wasn't nearly as much as they needed to.

We should collaborate in a project for reworking the epic spell system. Not totally- I envision that there would still be spell seeds, for instance- but try to get some of the bugs worked out.

Would anyone else be interested?

I wrote up a workable system based on the existing one nearly a year ago, and
converted a bunch of spells from an old 1E/2E campaign, using them to tweak the rules and get them into balance. We started playtesting it a few months ago, and so far, there haven't been any real problems, just a few minor tweaks here and there. The rules sytem wil be available soon for free download; I'd offer it now to anyone who wants it, but I won't be home till around Christmas (though if you catch me, then I'll be happy to send you a copy). This system is based on levels, not Spellcraft DCs, but it uses the base seeds (called elements), which are combined to form the spell. My system has a lot more elements, which allows for a far greater variety of effects without having to improvise.

Our epic rules are much the same as plane's - all classes are capped at L20; after that, you take levels in another core class or a PrC. BABs and saves progress normally (which eliminates that silly Ftr 20/Wiz 20 thing, and also makes it a LOT easier to make up a high-level character from scratch). We advanced our already-epic party (levels 23-30) to 45th level or so to do a stress-test of the rules, and we haven't encountered any real problems.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'd love to see your version of the epic rules!

If you get this, please send a copy to jim_stenberg at hotmail dot com.

 

[ciaran00]

I am working on infinitely scaling classes... I would also love to compare and contrast misterredtape at yahoo dot com.

ciaran

 

[LightPhoenix]

Class-wise, I'm of mixed feelings. I don't mind the 21+ progressions, or the bonus feats really. I think the seperate BAB and Save progressions are kind of dumb though. It'd be much simpler to just rule that you can't have more than four attacks (0/-5/-10/-15) and let BAB rise as normal. Saves, one of the major benefits of multiclassing is to cover your weaknesses, and there's certainly no shortage of feats, items, and spells to do that.

I'm not a huge fan of the spell seeds as they are now. I think I would have prefered the concept of spell seeds and had them take that and explain how to make spells of any level, but specifically 10th+. It just makes little sense to me to have a Vancian system at one point and a Skill-based one at another. On the other hand, I like the idea of only having 10+ spell levels be for metamagicked spells. I think I would have preferred a combination of spell seeds as I described above, and then metamagic feats which are more epic - Vast Spell as Plane Sailing described would be a good one.

The Fig/Wiz 20/20 versus Wiz/Fig 20/20 paradox definitely needs to be addressed. In my mind, these two should be equal, and they aren't under the current rules.