Anyone else tired of game mechanic freebies?

[bganon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but theme powers don't automatically get better at higher level. You only get the extra damage if you decide to swap your normal 11th or 21st level powers for that power, right?

You're wrong. The automatically granted powers scale with level. You power-swap to gain additional theme powers.

The automatically granted "freebie" theme powers, however, are still generally not very powerful, with one exception (Gladiator).

Poisoned Strike? 1[W]+5 poison damage is less than almost every Rogue/Ranger at-will, and the effect it grants is better than slow but somewhat worse than the target automatically granting CA.

It's a pretty good effect (but the monster has leeway to avoid it), but imagine if it were not a freebie: would you trade, say, Dazing Strike or Blunder for it? I wouldn't.

 

[UHF]

No. I have no problem with it.

 

[Larrin]

After DM-ing the dark sun encounters, i can say they provided the least amount of improvement possible. The only two that really ever made an impact was the adept power helping an ally make a save and 'excise from sight' acting like eyebite (albeit with user choice for who goes invisible) all the other powers were pretty much at wills that weren't at will, and never made a big difference. Actually I guess Excise from sight did make a few import contributions, it helped keep someone safe for one round and it did kill the BBEG, which I ruled excised HIM from sight, so they had to search around for his invisible corpse after the battle, (but any power that hit would have killed him*shrug*)

Bottomline: They don't tip any balances in the end, mostly they're unimpressive encounters that don't outshine any at wills. Excise from sight is the best I saw, and I have no problem with it.

 

[the Jester]

So what you're saying Joe, is that mechanics for the game should begin and end with Player's Handbook I. If it wasn't created for the initial game, then it shouldn't be added later on because it gives additional power to the players.

I think you are badly misunderstanding (or misrepresenting) what Joe was saying.

The way I read it, he has no objection to Martial Power, Plane Below, the vast majority of PH2, etc.

What he objects to is blatant power creep. And he isn't the only one. What he is saying is that there shouldn't be blatant power creep elements introduced with no cost. And I totally agree with him. With the exception of backgrounds and themes, 4e has done a fantastic job so far of avoiding power creep. But these two blatant examples are annoying to those of us that support continued balanced rules instead of a continuous slow increase in the power of 1st level pcs.

 

[eamon]

Color me unworried about the trivial power-inflation. But it does strike me as true that the multitude of options does make 1st level a bit messy. Part of the fun is developing the character - requiring all these choices at first level is a bit much.

If they add such things in the future, I'd prefer them spread out over levels, and not at first level. Perhaps something that requires DM intervention to enable, even though the player chooses the benefit - e.g, reimagined spellscars that are actually scars left by brutal BBEG's - thus the timing and presence (and perhaps general flavor) of the development is in DM hands, but the player (who knows his character best) can choose the relevant effect.

 

[Reigan]

The power creep is intended, along with the monster power creep in the MM3/DSCC to reduce grind.

 

[Urbanmech]

I don't have a problem with the themes because they are just intended for Dark Sun. In 2e Dark Sun characters started at 3rd level because the world was so brutal, in 4e rather than start at 3rd PC get a theme to help them out against the harsh world. They even stated at the Gen Con Dark Sun panel that they designed the monsters a bit tougher than normal monsters to give it the right feel.

I feel that backgrounds and themes are good ways to provide extra flavor to characters. I don't think they go so far as to imbalance the game but so far there are only themes for Dark Sun so who knows what their future track record will be.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

The Themes don't actually do more, the just allow characters to do somthing different. It's like getting a sword with one side sharp, you can only swing it one way. Then theres this new sword with 2 sharp sides, you can now swing it 2 ways, but not both at the same time.
Thats what the themes are, a "new way to swing your sword" Not a better, more powerful way.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The Themes don't actually do more, the just allow characters to do somthing different. It's like getting a sword with one side sharp, you can only swing it one way. Then theres this new sword with 2 sharp sides, you can now swing it 2 ways, but not both at the same time.
Thats what the themes are, a "new way to swing your sword" Not a better, more powerful way.

That would be great if it was completelty true but when you select a theme, you get a freebie and THEN the option to select different themed powers at appropriate levels.

 

[yesnomu]

Looking over the DS themes, only a few are more powerful than, say, a multiclass's at-will as an encounter power. Playing a Shaman in Athas, I have used Spirit of Athas something like twice (and that's with my DM houseruling it to count as a Shaman conjuration for Spirit Tempest...). Vengeful Elementals is quite a nice daily, though.

In any case, these things are quite optional for DMs. For us, the Scales of War/FRPG backgrounds are disallowed, and Themes seem very campaign-setting dependent. I don't think DMs who don't want these things should have a problem saying no, and I appreciate that DMs who want higher powered campaigns can allow more things to achieve it.