Anyone fought an Ancient Red?

[Klaus]

The bigger question is....how is the fighter going to hit it?

It has 12 fly (hover) and 4 squares of reach. Its not going to be anywhere near those landlubbing players!

At that level, the Fighter needs to do something like this:

Minor Action: Reaper's Stance (Fighter Attack 25, Daily): Critical hits on 19-20, damage bonus = Dex modifier, Enemy that starts turn adjacent to you takes 1[W] damage and ongoing 10.

Move -> Minor Action: Act of Desperation (Fighter Utility 22, Daily): Gain an action point that you must spend immediately.

Standard Action:
Warrior's Urging (Fighter Attack 23, Encounter): Burst 4: Effect: Enemy must shift 3 squares and end adjacent to you, and then you attack all enemies in close burst 1.

So the dragon (if it could hit you, it was within range) lands adjacent to you, is attacked (and hopefully hit), and is now marked. If it tries to move, you can smack it to stay put.

Action Point -> Standard Action: Villain's Menace (Fighter Attack 1, Daily): if you hit the target, you deal 2[W] and gain +2 hit/+4 damage for the rest of the encounter (if you miss, it's still +1 hit/+2 damage).

On your next turn, time to spend your last daily with something like No Mercy (Fighter Attack 30, Reliable Daily; 7[W] damage).

The Fighter should have something like:
+15 (level) +8 (Str 26*) +3 (sword) +6 (enchantment) +1 (Kensai Focus) +1 (Weapon Talent) +2 (Villain's Menace) = +36 to hit (should be hitting with a 12+)

Also, a Fighter specialized in a greatsword should hunt for a +6 Vorpal one, to maximize his damage.

* start with Str 18 and increase it at every opportunity.

 

[S'mon]

Use a smaller dragon and some minions.

Better yet perhaps, use several enemies, each weaker than a 30th level PC.

The way to relieve frustration is to let the players have fun. They're not going to have fun being squelched by uber-dragon. Design an encounter that looks flashy but where to lose they'd have to play abysmally.

 

[Phaezen]

The bigger question is....how is the fighter going to hit it?

It has 12 fly (hover) and 4 squares of reach. Its not going to be anywhere near those landlubbing players!

Fortunately magical thrown weapons automatically get the returning ability, so any melee character should be packing a magical throwing hammer or axe by the end of the Heroic tier. This should at least keep the defenders in the game with thier marking abilities. Also hopefully by this stage the party should have picked up some sort of flying ability, wether it is via powers, mounts or items.

Phaezen

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

If you do this, please consider posting the pre-gens so other people can run battles like this. I'd love to do a "Best of the Best" one-shot where 30th level players battle the top guys. There are a lot of 30th folks in the Forgotten Realms campaign guide I'd like to see battled.

Hiya, Mshea! I actually ran a couple of play tests with Big Red vs. five 30th level PCs; their stats are below. In the first play test the PCs were assumed to have spent all their action points and daily powers fighting their way to Big Red; in the second play test the PCs had everything. Both play tests ended with me getting bored 5-10 rounds into the fight and quitting. In the first play test it was clear that the PCs couldn't possibly win; in the second play test I can't say for sure but I'd still bet on Big Red. BR's attacks and defenses are so high that it usually hits any given PC (even either of my two defenders) while usually dodging any given PC attack (even my fighter's impressive +35 attack). So even if the PCs can succeed with their daily resources, it's a looong exercise in whittling slowly away at BR's hps with the occasional lucky hit.

TS

Human Wizard 30 (Battle Mage Demigod)
Str 12, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 28, Wis 24, Cha 13

Possessions: Starleather Elven Battle Armor +6, Orb of Invasive Fortune +6, Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Magic Dagger +6, Potion of Recovery

At-Will: Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Scorching Burst
Encounter: Confusion (168), Thunderclap (167), Force Volley (166), Forceful Retort (169)
Daily: Legion’s Hold (168), Prismatic Spray (168), Closing Spell (169), Disintegrate (166)
Utility: Divine Regeneration (175), Mass Fly (167), Displacement (165), Arcane Rejuvenation (169), Mirror Image (164), Dimension Door (162), Shield (161)
Item: Elven Battle Armor (230), Orb of Invasive Fortune (238), Scarab (251)

Heroic Feats: Action Surge, Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Leather), Improved Initiative, Human Perseverance, Quick Draw, Toughness
Paragon Feats: Action Recovery, Devastating Critical, Great Fortitude, Improved Second Wind, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Spell Focus
Epic Feats: Arcane Mastery, Blind-Fight, Epic Resurgence, Spell Accuracy, Triumphant Attack

Initiative +21; Speed 6
Intelligence Implement +30 (+9 Intelligence, +15 level, +6 enhancement)
Dagger +25 (+1 Strength, +15 level, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
AC 44 (+9 Intelligence, +15 level, +4 armor, +6 enhancement)
Fort 36 (+2 Constitution, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Ref 43 (+9 Intelligence, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Will 43 (+7 Wisdom, +1 race, +15 level, +2 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Saves +1
HP 155; Bloodied 77; Surge 8/day (43 HP)
Action Point: (+3 bonus to extra attack, +4 bonus to attacks until end of next turn and roll a save against each effect) or regain a daily spell

Human Fighter 30 (Kensai Demigod)
Str 28, Con 15, Dex 24, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12

Possessions: Godplate Dwarven Armor +6, Vorpal Great Sword +6, Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Magic Longbow +6, Potion of Recovery

At-Will: Cleave, Reaping Strike, Sure Strike
Encounter: Adamantine Strike (85), Fangs of Steel (84), Mountain Breaking Blow (83), Masterstroke (87)
Daily: No Mercy (86), Supremacy of Steel (85), Weaponsoul Dance (87), Reaving Strike (84)
Utility: Divine Regeneration (175), Act of Desperation (84), Iron Warrior (82), Ultimate Parry (87), Into the Fray (81), Unbreakable (80), Get Over Here (78)
Item: Dwarven Armor (229), Vorpal Weapon (236), Scarab (251)

Heroic Feats: Action Surge, Alertness, Armor (Plate), Human Perseverance, Quick Draw, Toughness, Weapon Focus
Paragon Feats: Action Recovery, Armor (Plate), Devastating Critical, Fleet-Footed, Great Fortitude, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Improved Second Wind, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Epic Feats: Blind-Fight, Epic Resurgence, Heavy Blade Mastery, Triumphant Attack

Initiative +24; Speed 6
Great Sword +35 (+9 Strength, +15 level, +1 class, +1 paragon, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
Longbow +30 (+7 Dexterity, +15 level, +2 weapon, +6 enhancement)
AC 46 (+15 level, +1 feat, +14 armor, +6 enhancement)
Fort 45 (+9 Strength, +1 race, +15 level, +2 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Ref 41 (+7 Dexterity, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Will 36 (+2 Wisdom, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Saves +1
HP 219; Bloodied 109; Surge 11/day (59 HP)
Action Point: (+3 to extra attack and roll a save against each effect) or reroll one roll

Human Rogue 30 (Shadow Assassin Demigod)
Str 24, Con 14, Dex 28, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 15

Possessions: Starleather Shadowflow Armor +6, Duelist’s Dagger +6, Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Magic Sling +6, Potion of Recovery

At-Will: Deft Strike, Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Encounter: Hurricane of Blood (126), Scorpion Strike (125), Dragon Tail Strike (124), Killer’s Eye (128)
Daily: Assassin’s Point (126), Ghost on the Wind (125), Final Blow (128), Flying Foe (124)
Utility: Divine Regeneration (175), Dazzling Acrobatics (125), Hide in Plain Sight (123), Bad Idea Friend (128), Shadow Stride (122), Nimble Climb (120), Tumble (119)
Item: Shadowflow Armor (231), Duelist’s Weapon (234), Scarab (251)

Heroic Feats: Action Surge, Alertness, Backstabber, Human Perseverance, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Toughness
Paragon Feats: Action Recovery, Devastating Critical, Great Fortitude, Improved Second Wind, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Secret Stride, Seize the Moment
Epic Feats: Blind-Fight, Epic Resurgence, Light Blade Mastery, Triumphant Attack, Unfettered Stride

Initiative +28; Speed 6
Dexterity Dagger +34 (+9 Dexterity, +15 level, +1 class, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
Strength Dagger +32 (+7 Dexterity, +15 level, +1 class, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
Sling +32 (+9 Dexterity, +15 level, +2 weapon, +6 enhancement)
AC 44 (+9 Dexterity, +15 level, +4 armor, +6 enhancement)
Fort 41 (+7 Strength, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Ref 45 (+9 Dexterity, +1 race, +15 level, +2 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Will 36 (+2 Charisma, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Saves +1
HP 186; Bloodied 93; Surge 8/day (51 HP)
Action Point: (+3 to extra attack, +4 to attacks until end of next turn and roll a save against each effect)

Human Warlord 30 (Battle Captain Demigod)
Str 28, Con 15, Dex 12, Int 24, Wis 14, Cha 13

Possessions: Elderhide Bloodcut Armor +6, Vorpal Great Sword +6, Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Magic Crossbow +6, Potion of Recovery

Special
Allies gain within 10 squares gain a +7 initiative bonus
Allies within 10 squares gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls during first round of combat
Allies healed by Inspiring Word gain a +7 power bonus to attack rolls and speed until end of your next turn
Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +7 damage bonus to action point attacks

At-Will: Commander’s Strike, Viper’s Strike, Wolf Pack Tactics
Encounter: Inspiring Word (145), Chimera Battlestrike (152), Sudden Strike (151), Thunderous Fury (150), Force Retreat (153)
Daily: Defy Death (152), White Raven’s Call (152), Cunning Flurry (154), Windmill of Doom (151)
Utility: Divine Regeneration (175), Own the Battlefield (151), Warlord’s Banner (150), Bolt of Genius (154), Defensive Rally (149), Guide the Charge (147), Aid the Injured (146)
Item: Bloodcut Armor (227), Vorpal Weapon (236), Scarab (251)

Heroic Feats: Action Surge, Alertness, Human Perseverance, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Tactical Assault, Toughness, Weapon Focus
Paragon Feats: Action Recovery, Armor Specialization (Hide), Combat Commander, Devastating Critical, Great Fortitude, Improved Second Wind, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Epic Feats: Blind-Fight, Epic Resurgence, Heavy Blade Mastery, Triumphant Attack

Initiative +20; Speed 6
Great Sword +33 (+9 Strength, +15 level, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
Crossbow +24 (+1 Dexterity, +15 level, +2 weapon, +6 enhancement)
AC 44 (+7 Intelligence, +15 level, +5 armor, +1 feat, +6 enhancement)
Fort 44 (+9 Strength, +1 race, +15 level, +1 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Ref 41 (+7 Intelligence, +1 race, +15 level, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Will 37 (+2 Wisdom, +1 race, +15 level, +1 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Saves +1
HP 187; Bloodied 93; Surge 9/day (51 HP)
Action Point: (+3 to extra attack and roll a save against each effect)

Human Paladin 30 (Hospitaler Demigod)
Str 24, Con 15, Dex 12, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 28

Possessions: Godplate Dwarven Armor +6, Holy Avenger Great Sword +6, Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Magic Crossbow +6, Potion of Recovery

At-Will: Divine Challenge (91), Lay on Hands (91), Bolstering Strike (92), Enfeebling Strike (92), Valiant Strike (92)
Encounter: Divine Mettle (91), Divine Strength (91), Deific Vengeance (99), Here Waits Thy Doom (98), Enervating Smite (96), Warding Blow (101)
Daily: Even Hand of Justice (99), To the Nine Hells with You (98), Life-Giving Smite (102), Corona of Blinding Radiance (97)
Utility: Divine Regeneration (175), United in Faith (98), Death Ward (96), Healing Font (102), Turn the Tide (95), Divine Bodyguard (94), Martyr’s Blessing (146)
Item: Dwarven Armor (229), Holy Avenger (234), Scarab (251)

Heroic Feats: Action Surge, Alertness, Healing Hands, Human Perseverance, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Toughness, Weapon Focus
Paragon Feats: Action Recovery, Armor Specialization (Plate), Devastating Critical, Fleet-Footed, Great Fortitude, Improved Second Wind, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Epic Feats: Blind-Fight, Epic Resurgence, Heavy Blade Mastery, Triumphant Attack

Initiative +20; Speed 6
Charisma Great Sword +33 (+9 Charisma , +15 level, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
Charisma Implement +30 (+9 Charisma , +15 level, +6 enhancement)
Strength Great Sword +31 (+7 Strength, +15 level, +3 weapon, +6 enhancement)
Crossbow +24 (+1 Dexterity, +15 level, +2 weapon, +6 enhancement)
AC 46 (+15 level, +14 armor, +1 feat, +6 enhancement)
Fort 42 (+7 Strength, +1 race, +15 level, +1 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Ref 36 (+1 Dexterity, +1 race, +15 level, +1 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Will 44 (+9 Charisma, +1 race, +15 level, +1 class, +2 feat, +6 enhancement)
Saves +1
HP 219; Bloodied 109; Surge 12/day (59 HP)
Action Point: (+3 to extra attack and allies within 5 squares gain 2 HP)

 

[charlesatan]

I'd just like to share that I threw a Pit Fiend (AC 44) against 7 Level 20 PCs (attack bonus of 23~26) and they did manage to hit and kill it. Superior tactics came into play (i.e. Combat Advantage) as well as judicious use of various abilities (i.e. Cleric and Warlord Buffs, armor penalties of TWF Rangers, Action Surge of Humans, etc.).

And, uh, the Pit Fiend also had allies then so...

Of course the group was a well-oiled machine by then... (except the Ranger... he keeps on forgetting to use Quarry before the attack roll).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I'd just like to share that I threw a Pit Fiend (AC 44) against 7 Level 20 PCs (attack bonus of 23~26) and they did manage to hit and kill it. Superior tactics came into play (i.e. Combat Advantage) as well as judicious use of various abilities (i.e. Cleric and Warlord Buffs, armor penalties of TWF Rangers, Action Surge of Humans, etc.).

How exactly did your PCs get the necessary bonuses to hit said Pit Fiend? Combat advantage is a no-brainer of course but that's only a +2; with the numbers you give the PCs need that five times over to have a 50/50 chance to hit. And how did the PCs survive the PF's attacks? Did they somehow manage to consistently buff their defenses high enough to require it to roll above a natural 2 or did the leaders just heal up the wazoo?

TS

 

[charlesatan]

How exactly did your PCs get the necessary bonuses to hit said Pit Fiend? Combat advantage is a no-brainer of course but that's only a +2; with the numbers you give the PCs need that five times over to have a 50/50 chance to hit. And how did the PCs survive the PF's attacks? Did they somehow manage to consistently buff their defenses high enough to require it to roll above a natural 2 or did the leaders just heal up the wazoo?

TS

Combat Advantage and Action Surge gives a +5 bonus total. The Cleric also had a zone which gave a small power bonus. The Warlord hit with Lead the Attack so...

As for the defenses, it was more on the leaders healing. I rolled a few 1's and 2's but for the most part, I was hitting.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Combat Advantage and Action Surge gives a +5 bonus total. The Cleric also had a zone which gave a small power bonus. The Warlord hit with Lead the Attack so...

Okay, action surge gives an extra +3 but that's just one attack per PC at best. A lucky hit with Lead the Attack certainly helps, but it's still only a +5-ish bonus that doesn't stack with other power bonuses like the cleric's aura.

I don't mean to sound critical or doubtful, I'm just really interested in how your PCs dealt with overwhelming numbers. I guess once they finished off the PF's henchmen, that leaves them with a mere elite monster against seven PCs so it's not incredibly amazing that they won. Did you notice at any point during the fight that the players seemed bored or discouraged due to missing more often than they hit while themselves being constantly wailed upon? Some players are very lucky and some are very easy-going, and more power to 'em, but I'd expect at least one or two to get annoyed by a fight against such daunting probabilities.

As for the defenses, it was more on the leaders healing. I rolled a few 1's and 2's but for the most part, I was hitting.

That's what I expected, and it no doubt helped that your PCs had two leaders in the group.

TS

 

[charlesatan]

Okay, action surge gives an extra +3 but that's just one attack per PC at best. A lucky hit with Lead the Attack certainly helps, but it's still only a +5-ish bonus that doesn't stack with other power bonuses like the cleric's aura.

The Action Surge was helpful in getting the Warlod hit with Lead the Attack. A +5~+6 bonus is nothing to sneeze at.

At that point, it's still difficult to hit the Pit Fiend but they didn't need 19's or 20's anymore. And by then, they piled on the status effects.

I don't mean to sound critical or doubtful, I'm just really interested in how your PCs dealt with overwhelming numbers. I guess once they finished off the PF's henchmen, that leaves them with a mere elite monster against seven PCs so it's not incredibly amazing that they won. Did you notice at any point during the fight that the players seemed bored or discouraged due to missing more often than they hit while themselves being constantly wailed upon? Some players are very lucky and some are very easy-going, and more power to 'em, but I'd expect at least one or two to get annoyed by a fight against such daunting probabilities.

The henchmen were focusing fire on or two PCs with several misses on my part so the rest of the party was free to tackle the Pit Fiend.

I don't think the players were ever bored, especially when this was more or less the final encounter (oh no, Pit Fiend!).

As for discouragement, there was at first but a) I've thrown more frustrating encounters at them before (i.e. Blackroot Treant + Beholder) and b) attack bonus from Lead the Attack turned the tide. By then, the player started to unload their Dailies (there's a couple of Ranger powers that lower their target's AC).

I also did a story moment for the player most likely to get discouraged at the start of the session (the hero's mentor basically said "you have one weakness and it is that you get disheartened easily... you must persist," etc.) so I nipped it early on.

That's what I expected, and it no doubt helped that your PCs had two leaders in the group.

Well, I was fielding 7 players so...

 

[Iron Sky]

We had a fight with 4 level 4 PCs vs a level 11 elite devourer that actually wasn't too frustrating either. My ranger needed about a 17 to hit(15 with CA), but fortunately, it's Reflex wasn't as hot so the warlock hit most of the time. We also all hit a high-rolling spree during round 3 and everyone hit with their encounter/daillies they were using. We killed it in about 4 rounds.

The Bulette we fought after that was much worse, since it seemed like ALL its defenses were high. Either that or we were just rolling lower, 'cause it turned into a 10 round slog trying to take it down. Not only that, but it was mostly doing its weak burrow-burst AoE so we weren't worried about it taking us out, just plinking away with At-wills until it died (unlike the devourer that swollowed two people - that alone made that fight way more intense).