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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gloombunny" data-source="post: 3877384" data-attributes="member: 54916">Getting off-topic here, but I really hope they don't turn "Oriental" into a power source.Anyway, yeah, add me to the list of people saying "those are defenders, not controllers".  Or in some cases strikers.  But not controllers.The only idea here that makes any sense as a controller is the alchemical-grenadier one, and that's really stretching the "martial" part.  For the alchemy stuff to make sense as class features rather than as products anyone can buy and use, you'd have to say it's the grenadier brewing/making the items himself, and if he can produce these items with magical effects, then he's not much different from a wizard, conceptually.  You could try to limit his items to definitely-not-magical effects, but then (a) he has a pretty limited repertoire of abilities, and (b) it can play havoc with the low-tech flavor D&D is based on.I do think an alchemical grenadier could make a very neat class (preferably in a supplement somewhere rather than core), but I don't think it really passes as a martial controller.</blockquote>