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<blockquote data-quote="MoogleEmpMog" data-source="post: 3879317" data-attributes="member: 22882">Of course Vetinari doesn't have to lift a finger.&nbsp; When it comes to manipulation, subterfuge and pre-planning, he's the best of the best.&nbsp; But Vetinari is a past-master at his art.&nbsp; He has been, as you point out, manipulating people and running the most chaotic, nigh-uncontrollable, jumbled mess of a city the Disc has ever seen.&nbsp; Sounds like a high-level character in D&amp;D terms.An ability like your 'Planning Ahead' feat, if it were a daily power for a Paragon or Epic-level character, would not, I suspect, be at ALL out of the question.&nbsp; It's not overpowered for a (3e) 9th level spell, and downright underpowered for a well-designed (3e) epic spell.&nbsp; A character who can do this at 18th level is not absurd.&nbsp; One who can do it at 25th or 30th level definitely isn't.As a &quot;low-level character&quot; (i.e., at the beginning of his career), Vetinari had to trick, manipulate and coerce others at a much more personal level, and sometimes even dirty his hands by going out and killing people - with a weapon, even!&nbsp; He couldn't rely on a perfectly planned series of events unfolding just the way he'd set it up from afar - he had to go out and set those events up, start laying the groundwork, if you will.&nbsp; In the process, he did things that would be considered &quot;Martial&quot; as I understand 4e's usage of the term, but which would also fall under the category of being a &quot;Controller.&quot;(Keep in mind that there is apparently going to be a more robust social encounter system than in 3e.&nbsp; This is another area where a Martial Controller might be designed to excel.)Could you represent a character like young Vetinari as a high-Int Rogue, play his controllish aspects via Diplomacy and Bluff checks and roleplay, and assume he later took Expert levels or equivalent?&nbsp; Probably.But if you're LOOKING for a Martial Controller, a character extrapolated from young Vetinari in the way the Wizard was extrapolated from Thoth-Amon, Gandalf, Rhialto and co. seems like a very good fit.&nbsp; Toss in a more infantry-oriented young Thrawn, the less experienced/non-Silverburg strategists from Suikoden, certain aspects of Hyuga Ricdeau and Delita Hyral, and you have at least enough to make a class out of.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MoogleEmpMog, post: 3879317, member: 22882"] Of course Vetinari doesn't have to lift a finger. When it comes to manipulation, subterfuge and pre-planning, he's the best of the best. But Vetinari is a past-master at his art. He has been, as you point out, manipulating people and running the most chaotic, nigh-uncontrollable, jumbled mess of a city the Disc has ever seen. Sounds like a high-level character in D&D terms. An ability like your 'Planning Ahead' feat, if it were a daily power for a Paragon or Epic-level character, would not, I suspect, be at ALL out of the question. It's not overpowered for a (3e) 9th level spell, and downright underpowered for a well-designed (3e) epic spell. A character who can do this at 18th level is not absurd. One who can do it at 25th or 30th level definitely isn't. As a "low-level character" (i.e., at the beginning of his career), Vetinari had to trick, manipulate and coerce others at a much more personal level, and sometimes even dirty his hands by going out and killing people - with a weapon, even! He couldn't rely on a perfectly planned series of events unfolding just the way he'd set it up from afar - he had to go out and set those events up, start laying the groundwork, if you will. In the process, he did things that would be considered "Martial" as I understand 4e's usage of the term, but which would also fall under the category of being a "Controller." (Keep in mind that there is apparently going to be a more robust social encounter system than in 3e. This is another area where a Martial Controller might be designed to excel.) Could you represent a character like young Vetinari as a high-Int Rogue, play his controllish aspects via Diplomacy and Bluff checks and roleplay, and assume he later took Expert levels or equivalent? Probably. But if you're LOOKING for a Martial Controller, a character extrapolated from young Vetinari in the way the Wizard was extrapolated from Thoth-Amon, Gandalf, Rhialto and co. seems like a very good fit. Toss in a more infantry-oriented young Thrawn, the less experienced/non-Silverburg strategists from Suikoden, certain aspects of Hyuga Ricdeau and Delita Hyral, and you have at least enough to make a class out of. [/QUOTE]

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