AoO: How are they so confusing?!

[Razz]

I've noticed many times in the gaming community that there's this group of people that just can't seem to grasp the concept and rules of Attacks of Opportunity.

Reading it through in the PHB, I really can't seem to understand the problem so many people seem to have with it? It's really simple. At least, it seems that way to me. I've never had any problems with it in my games, neither has any of my players.

Sure, it was really clunky in the beginning, but almost all rules are when you first start out. But both me and my players know it by heart, with only a few reminders here and there.

From what I have read about AoO, some actions provoke them and others don't. It's not a dreadully long list, either. It's all spelled out for you, and as time goes on it becomes second-nature. The only things we pay attention to now is whether or not a special attack from a prestige class or feat provokes an AoO, but that eventually goes away too once you've played the character long enough.

So I simply have to ask:

What can you tell me about Attacks of Opportunity rules that're mind boggling and that I can't seem to notice? I'm really curious.

 

[kenobi65]

Well, many of the players in my groups were initially confused about AoOs. It got to the point that, in one of my groups, I actually did a tutorial before a session for the players.

What was confusing?

- Getting straight that it's not moving *into* a threatened square that provokes, it's moving *out* of one.
- Understanding the impact that this has when you're dealing with reach.
- Internalizing the list of what does and doesn't provoke (and, for some people, it's *not* intuitive or simple...reading a scroll provokes, but using a wand doesn't, for example).

 

[Razz]

- Getting straight that it's not moving *into* a threatened square that provokes, it's moving *out* of one.
- Understanding the impact that this has when you're dealing with reach.
- Internalizing the list of what does and doesn't provoke (and, for some people, it's *not* intuitive or simple...reading a scroll provokes, but using a wand doesn't, for example).

1st one I agree, though it becomes so redundant afterwards it's hard to forget. Mainly because the players will use common sense (hopefully) and notice that they'll always provoke AoO with their melee characters if they advance on an enemy, which doesn't make sense, so the opposite has to be it.

Not so bad with Reach once the PCs see what areas are threatened and which ones aren't.

I can see the problems with the 3rd. It's happened to us a few times, but it doesn't happen to us all the time like some others feel that it does.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

What can you tell me about Attacks of Opportunity rules that're mind boggling and that I can't seem to notice? I'm really curious.

I don't think its so much that they are complicated, but that they interrupt the normal flow of combat.

Whenever you undertake an action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you have to stop doing that... And then go do something else... And then go back to what you were doing.

On top of that, the folks who have trouble remembering which action do and do not provoke attacks of opportunity don't have just to memorize the small list of action that do provoke an attack of opportunity, they have to memorize whether or not each individual action provokes an attack of opportunity, then they have to memorize those feats which except an action from provoking an attack of opportunity. Then they have to get interrupted in the middle of what they were doing when they do take an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Some people just do not have the time or inclination to memorize a bunch of crap for something that they are doing for fun.

Personally, I don't have any problem with attacks of opportunity. On the other hand, I have OCD.

Later
silver

 

[hong]

The most common times I've seen AoOs, it's been because someone is moving around within a threatened area and getting whacked for it. Second most common is someone trying to grapple. These are easy.

Funky situations like retrieving items, drinking potions, even casting spells, almost never come up; it's easy just to 5' step and avoid being in the threatened area in the first place.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Our group sorted out AoOs quite a long time ago. From memory, the final confusion we worked out was that someone moving directly past let's say a large creature does not provoke an atack of opportunity for each threatened square they leave. If you use a single move action to go past the creature, then only a single attack of oppotunity is conceded. Um... seems kind of funny now but that was the final confusion. If they had have just come out with the diagrams in 3.5 rather than how they were in 3.0 first, perhaps there would not have been as much confusion.

One thing worth mentioning is that we use a LOT of minis. As such, combat on a battle map is simple and easy to run. I can imagine for those not using minis, the simplicity of the AoO mechanic is... not quite as simple and obvious. Additionally, I imagine some simply don't get into the thrum of combat as much as others. In this case, by thrum, I mean the smaller details that add colour (or uneeded complexity) to what's going on in combat (whichever your perspective).

One other thing, this is a topic that normally seems to get some people's backs up. I certainly don't look down on people who have rejected AoOs as too complex,unnecessary or whatever. Everyone get's their fun in different ways; no right or wrong way of doing it if you know what I mean.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Razz]

On top of that, the folks who have trouble remembering which action do and do not provoke attacks of opportunity don't have just to memorize the small list of action that do provoke an attack of opportunity, they have to memorize whether or not each individual action provokes an attack of opportunity, then they have to memorize those feats which except an action from provoking an attack of opportunity. Then they have to get interrupted in the middle of what they were doing when they do take an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Some people just do not have the time or inclination to memorize a bunch of crap for something that they are doing for fun.

But this is no different in remembering how far your obscure spell from Complete Adventurer can go, what those 6 maneuvers allow you to do with those 2 Tactical feats you took, and remembering if the DC for your psionic power rose up by 1 for every 2 or 4 power points? All these require you to look it up or look on your character sheet if you have it printed out.

I believe a printed copy of the AoO rules and the table in the PHB would help PCs out a lot.

 

[Razz]

One other thing, this is a topic that normally seems to get some people's backs up. I certainly don't look down on people who have rejected AoOs as too complex,unnecessary or whatever. Everyone get's their fun in different ways; no right or wrong way of doing it if you know what I mean.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Oh I agree, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with adjusting or eliminating AoO from one's game, just curious as to what problems others were having that I wasn't having.

I like AoO because of the very reason WotC incorporated it into the Combat System in the first place: it was meant to simulate real combat as much as possible without getting overly complicated.

What I am really curious about are the types who completely ignore AoO rules. I mean, stuff like casting a Summon Monster I directly in the face of 4 well-trained hobgoblin fighters, drinking a potion in the face of a marilith and her 6 blades, and rushing through 10 opponents to reach the one in the back is logical and common sense enough to warrant a free hit somehow in some way. Seems less realistic to take away AoO rather than adjusting it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

What I am really curious about are the types who completely ignore AoO rules. I mean, stuff like casting a Summon Monster I directly in the face of 4 well-trained hobgoblin fighters, drinking a potion in the face of a marilith and her 6 blades, and rushing through 10 opponents to reach the one in the back is logical and common sense enough to warrant a free hit somehow in some way. Seems less realistic to take away AoO rather than adjusting it.

I suppose these people simply say, my guy is a hero and so can pick his way through a crowd of skilled combatants, or perhaps swigging that potion whilst swinging on a chandelier is all part of a days work in the life of an adventurer. Either that or there used to their DM repeatedly saying, "no you can't do that". Rather than an attack of opportunity, the DM just shuts the idea down. "No you can't move through them". That sort of thing.

Just guessing...

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I suppose these people simply say, my guy is a hero and so can *flip and tumble* his way through a crowd of skilled combatants

Just guessing...

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

*my edit

Either that or there used to their DM repeatedly saying, "no you can't do that". Rather than an attack of opportunity, the DM just shuts the idea down. "No you can't move through them". That sort of thing.

that would suck. I would smack that dm around if they said i couldn't do what normally is penalized as a aoo.

take the risk and reep the reward.