AoO with handguns in Modern vs Star Wars

[Tellerve]

I noticed a couple days ago on the Star Wars site about how you don't provoke an AoO with a ranged weapon (while in someone's space) if it doesn't require two hands.

It got me thinking if this is a rule that could/should be used in Modern d20. I'm collecting house rules/thoughts and ideas for my campaign before I start and this is one that I've been thinking about a little.

I'll go ahead and mention the other even though it doesn't have anything to do with the title is a system where on criticals there is a chance to do "more" damage. Like break a leg, arm, etc. I'm not sure if it was just flavor text for the damage or not, but in the Medallions d20 modern story hour a character got his leg pretty beat up. It is something as I said I've been toying with and wondered if anyone else had had similar thoughts or perchance had written anything up?

thanks,

Tellerve

 

[ledded]

I noticed a couple days ago on the Star Wars site about how you don't provoke an AoO with a ranged weapon (while in someone's space) if it doesn't require two hands.

I've not seen this, so I can't comment much, though it doesnt make sense to me to make that much of difference... you are still taking away your attention to aim, etc. Sure, I know lots of folks say they can snap off a shot with a pistol at close range really fast, but were talking about an *effective* shot here, right? My opinion, though, I know others will differ.

It got me thinking if this is a rule that could/should be used in Modern d20. I'm collecting house rules/thoughts and ideas for my campaign before I start and this is one that I've been thinking about a little.

I personally wouldnt, because not only are you unbalancing firearms a little bit (IMO) vs. melee/unarmed, but you are also taking away a good feature of the Gunslinger Adv Class that was specifically created to deal with this situation.

I'll go ahead and mention the other even though it doesn't have anything to do with the title is a system where on criticals there is a chance to do "more" damage. Like break a leg, arm, etc. I'm not sure if it was just flavor text for the damage or not, but in the Medallions d20 modern story hour a character got his leg pretty beat up. It is something as I said I've been toying with and wondered if anyone else had had similar thoughts or perchance had written anything up?

thanks,

Tellerve

Yup, that guy in Medallions was me. First time this happenned, a guy crit'd me with a knife, and on the confirmation roll he also threatened (I think). When confirming the second 'crit', instead of multiplying the damage, we roll for body location (since we use the VP/WP system you really dont want to multiply that damage). Roll came up 'left leg', so dude buried his knife in my thigh, disabling my leg until I got surgery. Essentially, until I got it worked on I would have taken a movement penalty.

The second time was more fun. Rolled a '1', potential critical miss. Re-roll on d20, a 1 indicates dropping your weapon, a 13 indicates drop your weapon and hurt yourself (I think, it's something like that). So Willie tried to shoot a zombie that had been chewing on his ankle with his .44, but critically missed and shot himself again. Roll came up "left leg". Crippled myself again.

I'll try to remember the simple system we use a little better and edit this later, I dont think I got it quite right there.

 

[d4]

you are still taking away your attention to aim, etc.

i can see a difference between shooting a pistol vs shooting a rifle in melee. when someone's less than 2m from you, you don't really need to aim all that much with a pistol, and you can still fire it while it's at hip- or waist-level. with a rifle, you still really need to bring it up to you shoulder to get a decent shot. basically, you are a bit more "vulnerable" with a rifle than a pistol in melee.

you unbalancing firearms a little bit (IMO) vs. melee/unarmed

on the other hand, i agree with this. in Star Wars, it's not as big a deal because really, the only people melee'ing in SW is Jedi. in that situation, it's the ranged combatants who are underpowered and need a little help. if every Jedi could get an AoO (with his 2+d8 lightsaber that ignores armor) every time someone with a pistol tried to shoot him, it'd be a massacre for the blaster guys.

in d20 Modern, it's generally the ranged guys who are doing more damage and the melee guys who need a little help to remain balanced.

 

[Tellerve]

Yeah, I can see that the specifics of the system, lightsabers for instance, change the mechanics somewhat.

Ledded- I dunno if it is possible or not, but if you or your DM have those rules written up somewhere I would love to have them to use or steal bits from. I have a write up of the magic system you all are using and also find that a good change from the typical system.

Thanks all,

Tellerve

 

[Henry]

Anyone know of a page reference to this in the Revised Star Wars rules? That one totally slipped by me, and would change a LOT of characters I've designed.

 

[ledded]

i can see a difference between shooting a pistol vs shooting a rifle in melee. when someone's less than 2m from you, you don't really need to aim all that much with a pistol, and you can still fire it while it's at hip- or waist-level. with a rifle, you still really need to bring it up to you shoulder to get a decent shot. basically, you are a bit more "vulnerable" with a rifle than a pistol in melee.

You can fire *some* rifles/shotguns from the hip almost as effectively as *some* pistols at close range, IMO (especially a shotgun). You still have to aim that pistol if you want to reasonably be sure to hit someone, even if it's just a quick point and fire, because remember that your combatant is not just standing there still waiting for your initiative count to come up... he's ducking, weaving, and trying to hit you with a big stick or whatnot, making a 'hip shot' with a pistol pretty darn difficult, or extending the pistol for an aimed shot pretty much an open invitation for a disarm. Remember that video of the guy trying to kill that lawyer who was ducking around the tree not long ago? Shooting someone at close range who doesnt want to be shot isnt necessarily a given (though it's obvious that neither of the guys involved there had very much in the way of combat training or experience). Granted, it's easier IMO than whacking him with a stick (bullets move pretty fast) but it still takes some of your attention away from trying not to get brained to use the pistol effectively for most everyone but the intensely trained pistol jockeys (Gunslinger).

Which is why most folks prefer to get a little space (at least a 5' step) before firing off a shot... take a step back and aim outside of their reach (pretty much works most of time in our games). If you are having a problem with pistol guys getting brained by melee guys more often than not then they might want to try fighting with a pistol a bit smarter.

And I agree, the longarm guy is a bit more vulnerable in melee, which is why he gets a -4 to hit against adjacent opponents when using one (to justify the additional difficulty of bringing the weapon to bear).

My point is if you want to be able to escape the AoO in modern then just train for it... take a level of Gunslinger (or make some kind of feat tree where you could eventually get it) but I dont think just letting anyone with a gun get away from the AoO is a good idea. Just my opinion.

on the other hand, i agree with this. in Star Wars, it's not as big a deal because really, the only people melee'ing in SW is Jedi. in that situation, it's the ranged combatants who are underpowered and need a little help. if every Jedi could get an AoO (with his 2+d8 lightsaber that ignores armor) every time someone with a pistol tried to shoot him, it'd be a massacre for the blaster guys.

in d20 Modern, it's generally the ranged guys who are doing more damage and the melee guys who need a little help to remain balanced.

Well, the lightsaber does give an advantage, but the 'massacre for the blaster guys' is pretty much exactly what you see in most of the movies where it's guns vs. jedi, and the game mechanics reflect that because it's pretty much part of the whole genre. Of course, I've fought jedi in my SW games with gun-guys pretty successfully just by being a little smarter, i.e., not letting him get very close to me without paying for it, and making sure I had a pretty good stun weapon handy. Really irritated by Jedi players when the NPC's did that kind of stuff.

Tellerve -- I'll try to get that info for you soon and post it up.

 

[Ranger REG]

Anyone know of a page reference to this in the Revised Star Wars rules? That one totally slipped by me, and would change a LOT of characters I've designed.

RCR, page 152, Table 8-2: Actions in Combat
RCR, page 158, Attacks of Opportunity and Ranged Weapons heading.

 

[Tellerve]

Remember that video of the guy trying to kill that lawyer who was ducking around the tree not long ago? Shooting someone at close range who doesnt want to be shot isnt necessarily a given (though it's obvious that neither of the guys involved there had very much in the way of combat training or experience).

Actually, you may not have watched the news on that enough, but he did as I remember it, did indeed get shot. However, they were all "superficial" wounds and didn't cause any injury to anything that would cause him to die. But I do recall hearing he got several times. And I remember his brother or friend saying his days of football in high school saved him (lol, not that I believe that..more just media finding something to say, but err well anyway).

"And I agree, the longarm guy is a bit more vulnerable in melee, which is why he gets a -4 to hit against adjacent opponents when using one (to justify the additional difficulty of bringing the weapon to bear)." -ledded

Really? shoot, i missed that one apparently as that is kinda what I was thinking. While I obviously woudln't want anyone pointing a weapon on me, it would seem a rifle has more to grab to try and push out of the way/angle away from you (AoO).

"My point is if you want to be able to escape the AoO in modern then just train for it... take a level of Gunslinger (or make some kind of feat tree where you could eventually get it) but I dont think just letting anyone with a gun get away from the AoO is a good idea. Just my opinion." -ledded

Yeah, your probably right

"Tellerve -- I'll try to get that info for you soon and post it up." -ledded

Sweet, thanks much man.

Tellerve

 

[d4]

I've fought jedi in my SW games with gun-guys pretty successfully...

one of the most successful tactics is to use a slugthrower -- Jedi can't deflect bullets, just blaster bolts.

i've found that when facing even a mid-level Jedi who's able to give up an action to deflect/attack, firing a blaster at him is pretty much giving him ammunition to kill you with...

 

[nobodez]

& d20Modern

SWRCRB p 57 - "A Jedi learns to deflects blaster bolts and other porjectiles with his lightsaber..." (emphasis mine). So no, slung throwers aren't a god weapon against Jedi, they just can't hit you back with them.

No, on to d20 Modern...

I personally have no problem with the AoO rules as they are, since they allow the gunslinger to shine. Also, it allows those large characters to still get AoOs with their M16A2s in each hand.