AoO's and Reach Weapons

[Water Bob]

When an attacker attempts a Sunder or Disarm maneuver, the target gets an Attack of Opportunity before the Sunder or Disarm attempt is made (unless the attacker has a Feat that negates the AoO).

What if the attacker uses a reach weapon? Sure, the defender will close distance on his turn, but for that one attack, does the target not get his AoO?

In other words, if you use a Reach weapon to do a Sunder or Disarm, does that negate the target's usual Attack of Opportunity?




I'm thinking that it does.

But, I"m also willing to hear counter arguments.

Thoughts?

 

[Celebrim]

When an attacker attempts a Sunder or Disarm maneuver, the target gets an Attack of Opportunity before the Sunder or Disarm attempt is made (unless the attacker has a Feat that negates the AoO).

What if the attacker uses a reach weapon? Sure, the defender will close distance on his turn, but for that one attack, does the target not get his AoO?

Technically, I think the answer is, "No."

Attacks of opportunity are only provoked if they originate from threatened squares.

There is one exception I tend to make for that, and that is initiating a grapple.

 

[Water Bob]

Technically, I think the answer is, "No."

Attacks of opportunity are only provoked if they originate from threatened squares.

There is one exception I tend to make for that, and that is initiating a grapple.

Yeah, we're saying the same thing: No Attack of Opportunity if a Reach Weapon is used.

 

[Scorpio616]

Here is what WOTC said when they FAQed that up. (I kid, it was one of their better FAQ entries)

If an enemy makes an attack against me that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all?

Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you.

Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples.

If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you can make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).

 

[Celebrim]

WotC's house rule is ill-conceived. While they are correct regarding the letter of the rules, and their concept sounds logical on the surface, what it means is that if you try to sunder or disarm an opponent with a reach weapon they immediately get a chance to sunder or disarm first. In fact, if you initiate the action you are supposed to go first, and they are only supposed to be able to respond (if you fail). And this also creates a bit of an infinite loop, in that if you try to sunder someone, they can try to sunder you firstest, and then that triggers an attack of opportunity so you can try to sunder them firstest, and so forth.

Basically, for sunder/disarm, you are just better sticking to the rules.

But the grapple situation is different, since you are actually making an attack on the arm/tentacle or whatever of the creature trying to grab you, so that tends to work out in a straight forward manner.

 

[delericho]

What if the attacker uses a reach weapon? Sure, the defender will close distance on his turn, but for that one attack, does the target not get his AoO?

Nope. Unless he also has a reach weapon, of course.

Technically, the Sunder/Disarm attempt still provokes an AoO, it's just that the character being attacked isn't actually able to make the AoO due to not having sufficient reach.

 

[N'raac]

WotC's house rule is ill-conceived. While they are correct regarding the letter of the rules, and their concept sounds logical on the surface, what it means is that if you try to sunder or disarm an opponent with a reach weapon they immediately get a chance to sunder or disarm first. In fact, if you initiate the action you are supposed to go first, and they are only supposed to be able to respond (if you fail). And this also creates a bit of an infinite loop, in that if you try to sunder someone, they can try to sunder you firstest, and then that triggers an attack of opportunity so you can try to sunder them firstest, and so forth.

If you initiate an action, you go first unless you provoke an attack of opportunity, in which case that is resolve first. Under the Sage house rule, if the Ogre attempts to Sunder the Elf's longsword with his Greatclub, and the Elf choses to Sunder, he provokes an AoO unless he has Improved Sunder, which would allow the Ogre an AoO which he could use to strike the Elf, or could use to attempt his own Sunder. Since the Elf has now used his one AoO per round (barring feats allowing multiple AoO), the chain ends, and the Ogre gets to Sunder once, following which the Elf may resolve his Sunder, and the Ogre then resolves his initial Sunder attack.

Neither of them is getting much benefit from Sunder if it provokes an AoO.

A similar result arises if the Elf, on seeing the Ogre attempt to start a Grapple, uses his AoO to try to grab the incoming arm...