AoW: Hall of Harsh Reflections and CRs

[Steel_Wind]

My players, rules lawyers that they are, are feeling a little put out. I’ve managed to kill all the PCs (but one) at least once and they are feeling aggrieved at the nastiness of the Age of Worms...

One thing that has them irked is the sheer nastiness of the Greater Doppelganger fighters in Hall of Harsh Reflections. The 1-8+6, +13/+8 attacks and the AC 22 had them irked. The criticals were flying fast and furious and the party felt truly overpowered.

What’s got the up in arms now is the CR level of Telakin. They are of the view that Telakin’s Wizard levels should have added to his CR as a Doppelganger 1 for 1. Even if it is a ½ addition, the apparently 8th level Wizard Telakin and the CR9 Greater Doppelganger indicates a CR of 13, not 9 or 10.

When I withdrew the three Greater Doppelganger fighters from the maze to aid Telakin in his Throne room, the proper EL level skyrockets - depending on how you assess the CR of Matal and Regim (on whose entries I based the Gr Doppelgagner fighters).

Given that I just about TPK’d them in Hall of Harsh Reflections a few times, they are feeling that the CRs for the real creature threats are not being accurately reflected in the module. I have to admit - I'm inclined to agree with them.

Whait is the propoer CR to assign to Martal and Regim (see Sodden Hold, rm. D6) and the fighters based on their entries (CR6) and Telakin (CR9? 10? 13?).

Martal and Regim from rm. D6 look to be CR9 at least, possibly higher, while Telakin appears to be a CR13 – by the book.

Opinions?

 

[frankthedm]

I believe AoW expects PCs to be powergaming.

What level are they? AC 22 ain't that bad, thats full plate and tower sheild.

 

[Steel_Wind]

PCs are 2 of em at 7th, 3 at 6th (effects of raise dead).

Greater Doppelganger fighters - natural armor - AC22, 64 HPs, +13/+8, 1-8+6 damage. The party encounters 2 - then 5 of these - then 3 more of them.

Telakin, the Greater Doppelganger Wizard is 8th level spellcaster, can morph to 8th level Barbarian as well - with Rage. His EL alone is listed at 10. I think he's higher.

Greater Dopplegangers - with lesser stats than the Gr. Doppelganger fighters listed above, are listed as CR9 as creatures. The fighters are listed as CR6 - with two of em as EL8.

The five of them was damned nasty, and that fight plus the 3 plus Doppel Wizard consumed all party resources completely leaving two dead. My players are using the rules to the max, so yes, there is some powergaming, optimal dev choices being made in char development.

 

[frankthedm]

PCs are 2 of em at 7th, 3 at 6th (effects of raise dead).

Oh. man, thats a bad level to be missing, 4th level spells, sneak attack die, 1st PRC level. Side trek time.

What classes are they? What splat material are they using?

I trust they are using thier scrolls and potions.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Party:

Human Ftr 7 (died)
Human Psych Warrior 7
Elven Mystic Theurg 6
Gnome Wizard 6
Halfling Rogue 4/Ftr 2 (died)

The experience from the fights in HoHR based on the CRs given seems too low to me, given the lethality of the encounters, tbh.

All Complete Books in use, ExPH and Spell Compendium.

 

[frankthedm]

Ok, the greater doppleganger does not have actual class levels, they mimic class abilities based on who they have eaten, That is part of their CR 9. That particular on has two 8th level can choose between, but he does not have actual levels granting more BAB and Hit dice and the like. His spell stack is useful, but not brutal. His feats take advantage of neither class.

His gear is not over the top for either class he can mimic either.

Mystic theurge 6? Aint' that a PRC?

Uhm, you guys need more people in fullplate. That poor fighter was the one tank in the bunch from what it looks like!

No turn undead? They are wormfood.

The doppleganger fighters are kinda wimpy.

 

[airwalkrr]

The party I ran through that adventure included a dwarf fighter, a human healer, a human druid, a half-orc barbarian/rogue/shadowdancer, a human monk, and an elf sorcerer. They started the adventure with three of them under-leveled (whenever a new character joins, I require they be one level lower and several players missed a number of sessions). They trashed every battle with little difficulty. We are now down to just the dwarf fighter, human healer, human druid, and human monk and there has been little death on the whole, if you don't count that TPK in TFoE. The Age of Worms is tough, but I think frankthedm's assertion that it expects the PCs to powergame is a bit unfair. It's a dark campaign that is very challenging, but it is very traditional D&D. Lots of dungeons, lots of tricks and traps, and evil creatures everywhere with diabolical plots. My players have enjoyed it despite some deaths (and a TPK). Overall, I wouldn't say it is too hard at all. A party with only a cleric, fighter, rogue, and a mage could handle the entire thing and with a little luck, avoid death, except of course for the final battle, which is seriously just ridiculous. But then I've heard of one mage who obliterated it in one round (admittedly the DM sounded like a pushover with the crazy stuff he was allowing, but it happened).

The current party I am running has been doing well in The Champion's Games. The only thing they feared was the Froghemoth, but it didn't even knock anyone unconscious.

 

[frankthedm]

The Age of Worms is tough, but I think frankthedm's assertion that it expects the PCs to powergame is a bit unfair.

Does Ready and Able to handle splat book heavy PCs sound better?

 

[satori01]

I believe Jacobs wrote that particuliar episode of AoW, so it is quite possible to see him pop in to discuss his reasoning. I sorta viewed the whole Wizard/Barbarian aspect of the Greater Doppleganger as a sorta of poor man's Tenser's Transformation.

I used the Doppleganger stats in a Mirror Maze dungeon a long time back, with my party levels a little bit higher than yours, and remember the the encounters to be tough, probably at the high end of the CR, but still w/in reason.

One thing I can suggest, is have your players level their characters up to say 13th level, give them the increase in HP, spells, and say a +1 to their magic items and run the encounter again. I did this when running the 3.5 conversion of Tomb of Horrors against the Mutant 4 Armed Gargoyle. The Gargoyle was well on its way to a TPK..and cries of it is CR 13 or 15 were heard around the gaming table. So as the survivors ran to the exit as fast as the could w/o setting off the traps, they found their regular characters awaiting at the entrance. Minatures in hand the APL 11 group took the tag from the surviving one shot adventuring group and intiative was rolled. Needless to say the Mutant 4 Armed Gargoyle did not even last one round.

Overall I found it rather therapeutic, the players and myself found that the Mutant 4 Armed Gargoyle was probably about the right CR at 11, (but still too high for APL 9 adventurers). Doing so will probably go a long ways to proving or disproving your groups idea that the Dopplegangers are under CR'd. If it is a cake walk at the increased levels, the dice and the circumstances were against them. If they die at the increased test levels... Houston we have a problem.

 

[satori01]

The only thing they feared was the Froghemoth, but it didn't even knock anyone unconscious.

Advance it 4 HD, put it in water, and add a layer of oil to the water and light it on fire. Place the party on (Tippable) wooden platforms, and run again. Do not forget to grapple/drown someone