Appropriate Boss bad guy for my group?

[Random Axe]

I am currently DMing for our Forgotten Realms campaign. We are 11 PC's (made of a cleric dwarf, a fighter dwarf, two sorceror-thieves, a bard, a wizard, a barbarian, a paladin, a fighter-thief, and two rangers), averaging 6th to 8th level (with a couple at 10th-level) (at present; it's likely we will all be leveling up at least 1 level at the conclusion of this current adventure).

I had been considering running a dragon lair adventure for the group, but after studying up on the Red Dragon stats, I am seriously doubting whether our party can survive.

So, do you feel that an Adult Red Dragon would represent a lethal TPK, a puff piece, or a decent challenge for this party? Considering that the dragon is protected from scrying and therefore the party would have no real idea their final encounter will be the dragon, so can't very easily prepare fully for a dragon hunt. I'm looking at its AC, its total HP, and its DR factors -- is anyone going to get to hit this thing?

 

[James McMurray]

I'd use a lower CR critter with a bunch of henchmen instead. Creatures powerful enough to survive long against groups with a lot of PCs (6 or more) are usually so big that they destroy the group outright. Even against small parties matched to their CR fighting solitary large creatures can often be anticlimactic because of the surprising amount of force a group of PCs can bring to bear when they a) know they have to and b) don't have their attention divided.

A CR 15 creature is going to be barely touchable by 10th level characters, and untouchable by the rest. Perhaps instead something CR 9 with bodygaurds and followers that are CR 5 - 7.

And don't forget the 10 average statted kobolds whose only job is to break charges and soak up a fireball.

 

[Piratecat]

Use a dragon, but weaken it through some "special effect" - a withered leg (only one claw attack), noticeably sickly (reduced con), a respiratory disease that inhibits its breath weapon, that sort of thing. I think a wheezing dragon with asthma might be great!

 

[ashockney]

A CR 15 encounter would be brutal to average level 8 characters. I've found that the CR system works very well to determine the appropriate "power level" of villians to throw against the PC's. This is usually good for +/- 2 levels at low and mid levels and up to +/- 4 levels at high levels. So if your average party level is about 8th level, you could throw bad guys at them of about CR 6 -10 with the CR 10's being the "bosses". The weird exception to this situation is that you have an usually large party (11 PC's), so one CR10 creature really won't cut it. Accordingly, you should perhaps have a few CR10 creatures (up to four) who coordinate to be the "BBEG". This doesn't work so well with Dragons, because of their unique construction to be a "solo" BBEG. When you "team them up" together, they get exponentially more challenging, particularly with effects like improved grab, snatch, dragon breath, etc.

 

[Fishbone]

17 HD Will-O-the-Wisp with a level of rogue with 2 13 HD Shadow Rust Monsters that took Ability Focus.
That will piss off the 6 melee fighters a LOT.
Edit: This is a CR 12 encounter what I'm about to suggest and it will also piss off the other fighter characters tremendously. Elder Earth Elemental, give it a fighter level and a greataxe. 4d6+18 damage. The bonus feat should be Leap Attack and Thicken Skin. DR 12/- and 4-1 when power attacking. 288 HP, too.
The only problem with this is that it will be super boring for you to run. The fight will have a certain amount of inevitability about it and take forever to go through.
Another thing to do would be match them up 2-1 against CR 6 or 7 creatures. So get 4 CR 7s that can cooperate well together and give them a CR 8 or 9 leader so it won't take so long and you have something to do.

 

[Mark CMG]

Large groups are difficult to challenge with a single, powerful opponent. So, too, a Big Bad with henchmen can be problematic when they get to a final conflict and no single character can take on the BB himself. I suggest you build a group in opposition to them that work as a cooperative of some sort.

 

[smootrk]

Instead of a Red Dragon, have it actually be some sort of mock-up dragon controlled by a small cabal of Kobold Mages (of median level and/or dragonwrought, and a variety of specialties) who are perpetrating a ruse of sorts. The party has little to fear from the actual dragon corpse/automaton/effigy, but when the illusion is spoiled, they must face off against these quite able mages of small stature.

 

[Fishbone]

Rage Drake with a 9th level Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and his 9 HD huge Dire Weasel(you're damn right its huge! )

 

[Kafkonia]

Instead of a Red Dragon, have it actually be some sort of mock-up dragon controlled by a small cabal of Kobold Mages (of median level and/or dragonwrought, and a variety of specialties) who are perpetrating a ruse of sorts. The party has little to fear from the actual dragon corpse/automaton/effigy, but when the illusion is spoiled, they must face off against these quite able mages of small stature.

Seconded. (contact) did some good things with a "pack of dragons" -- actually polymorphed wolves -- in one of his story hours (Liberation of Tenh, I think.)

 

[pawsplay]

Without preparation, higher level dragon battles are going to be a slaughter. With preparation, that can change.

How about a half-dragon? Half-dragon dinosaur, half-dragon hydra or pyrohydra, half-dragon giant snake, half-dragon advanced worg, half-dragon naga, half-dragon griffin. Then, they can later battle its progenitor and master.