April 3rd, Rule of 3

[drothgery]

Your premise is faulty. None of the "core four" in 3E was beyond challenging. The barbarian runs neck and neck with the fighter; the bard edges out the rogue; and none of them can lay a finger on the full casters. The druid is generally accepted as being on par with the cleric.

The druid is on par with the cleric as a general combatant, or possibly even better; the cleric is a much better healer. The statement in the Rule of Three article that a pre-4e bard or druid was a capable substitute healer was absurd; they were not even close in healing ability in any edition of D&D except 4e (if you consider 4e shamans and Essentials Sentinel Druids as the heirs to pre-4e druids).

 

[kevtar]

HP themselves, sure.

But the extension of this to include surges doesn't stand up to inspection.
There was nothing comparable to surges in 1E.

And I still don't see that they are ready to blunder again on that front.

There is plenty of space between 4e style surges and simply having "non-magical self healing". In 3E a fighter can non-magically self heal. It just takes roughly a week. It takes a hell of a lot less time than anything "realistic", but it still takes meaningful time. And it is "non-magical self-healing".

The fundamental basis of surges as a means of restoring HP is a departure from all prior editions. HP themselves being comparable is true and it does nothing to address the issue of surges.

I disagree with you on your first point. I believe it does stand up to inspection, even though such a thing didn't exist in 1e - but we can disagree and that's cool.

My point in referencing HPs in 1e is that many people seem suspicious of the concept of HP in 4e when it has always been representative of more than damage. However, when healing surges are added to the mix, then some people outright rejected the 4e concept. This wasn't a problem for me, and I guess it comes down to personal interpretation and taste. I don't really see healing surges as a departure from prior editions as much as an enlargement upon the concept. If HP is representative of more than physical damage, then healing surges can be a representation of revivification of more than physical damage.

That said, I'm not 100% stuck on surges. If 5e provides a meaningful way for non-magical healing to occur (hopefully better than the mechanics in previous editions, like your reference to 3.0), then great!. My stance is simply, if the concept of HP is large enough to include physical damage, skill, luck, etc... then "healing" should be large enough to accommodate ways to revive the PC without relying on magical means.

 

[FireLance]

I think if WotC had done a better job connecting healing surges with HP, there wouldn't be quite so much angst. If you converted all your surges to their HP equivalent, and then said "an adventurer can only take x damage in a short amount of time before they are too fatigued to avoid serious harm", would that have been better received?

You know, I once considered whether there might be some value in equating 4e's hit points to 3e's massive damage rule. Then, I figured it wouldn't be worth the effort because it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think if WotC had done a better job connecting healing surges with HP, there wouldn't be quite so much angst. If you converted all your surges to their HP equivalent, and then said "an adventurer can only take x damage in a short amount of time before they are too fatigued to avoid serious harm", would that have been better received?

For me, that last bit -- "before they are too fatigued to avoid serious harm" -- hits my suspension of disbelief upside the face.

It's unnecessary. Y'know, if the party wants to keep trying to fight a battle after taking a tremendous amount of damage, that's up to them. They've got HP enough to last through 2-3 battles in 4e with this method.

Though leaders in this method do better with powerful daily mechanics rather than middling 2/encounter mechanics, I like it better with that swing in place.

One thing I do like is the idea of a "surge value" for HP instead of rolling for it, meaning that bigger buffer fighters don't need more spells than wizards to get up to full.

 

[Leatherhead]

I have no idea where you all got "Surges are in" from that article.

They simply state "non-magical healing" It could be as simple as importing the second wind mechanic from SWSE (the one that didn't require surges).

All you would need is :
Extended rest regain x hp
short rest: regain y hp
second wind: regain z hp.
Random ability: also regain z hp.

That fills all the requirements they are going for.

Personally, I hate surges because they became a "mana pool" for everyone.

 

[MichaelSomething]

The text in the OP sounds like really bad news.

The text in the actual article is so vague as to say almost nothing.

Isn't that how all these articles turn out?

 

[Lanefan]

HP themselves, sure.

But the extension of this to include surges doesn't stand up to inspection.
There was nothing comparable to surges in 1E.

And I still don't see that they are ready to blunder again on that front.

There is plenty of space between 4e style surges and simply having "non-magical self healing". In 3E a fighter can non-magically self heal. It just takes roughly a week. It takes a hell of a lot less time than anything "realistic", but it still takes meaningful time. And it is "non-magical self-healing".

When they refer to "non-magical self-healing" they could even be talking about something as simple as a minor means of healing we dreamed up and have been using for many years: if you take damage in a given combat/encounter/situation you can spend a few minutes as soon as the encounter ends to take a breather, have a quick drink, tend to the minor nicks and bruises, and generally patch yourself up a bit - this gets you 1d3 h.p. back (but if you only took 1 point damage that's the most you can get back). If you're hurt enough to be into body points (about the same as wound points elsewhere) this resting doesn't work for you as you need something more persuasive - either time, or curative magic.

Lanefan

 

[YRUSirius]

Short rest: Heal your hit dice (1W10 for Fighters, 1W4 for Wizards, etc...) x your level.

Limit short rests to 4 times per 24 hours to be effective (fifth short rest won't heal hp anymore).

Deal done.

-YRUSirius

 

[UngeheuerLich]

surges are needed. At least the percentage of max hp part. Cure spells were a real game breaker for me at the end of 3rd edition. We actually changed the spell (before 4e was even announced) to restore x class hit dice + y amount of damage healed, as the barbarian was not healed well enough, while a wizard is healed to easily by a certain cure spell. It was illogical that cure light wounds restored the same number of hp for both, although 50 damage might be a light wound for the barbarian, but a rather serious wound for the wizard.

On the other topic: I seriously hope, the 4e style hp remain largely the same, but there should be a treshold when a serious wound is inflicted, that only time or a magical healing spell will cure.

 

[Falling Icicle]

surges are needed. At least the percentage of max hp part.

I wouldn't mind having healing effects heal you for a percentage of your hit points (plus maybe a bonus). That was never the reason I disliked "healing surges".