Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability

[Zad]

Quick response now (I hope to read this in more detail later): I've been playing an arcane archer in a long running campaign. Yes, I feel that 3.5 weakened their abilities significantly. I was hoping they would get a little boost to compensate for it, but alas it did not happen.

And to answer the unspoken question, yes I think the imbue ability is pretty limited in practice. Maybe if they had allowed touch spells...

 

[Pax]

Doc, I wasn't suggestign what the most powerful archer build would be (I dunno what Trollface posted, I've got him Ignored).

I was just suggesting another approach to the AA that might prove interesting, is all. Generally speaking, the strongest AA builds probably involve liberal use of the Eldritch Knight PrC. (e.g. Fighter(1)/Wizard(5)/EldKnight(10)/Arcane Archer(4) ...)

But a Theurge/AA build could prove entertaining, nonetheless.

 

[Nail]

Changing the tpyes of spells Imbue Arrow works with might be fun. Why were the designers afraid of touch spells? I can't (off the cuff) think of any nasty wizard touch spells that would be too powerful, given this ability.

Cleric touch spells, OTOH, I could see as being a problem.

 

[WizarDru]

ECL 35:
Wizard(7)/Cleric(7)/Theurge(10)/Fighter(4)/AA(7)
... now you've got 9th level Wizard and Cleric spells, and +4 arrows for free.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
(wipes a tear from laughter)

Seriously, a 35th level character who only gets +4 arrows? That's really not much to coo about. Considering there are CR 19 and CR 21 creatures that are have Epic DR (such as the Bak'lash Dreadnaught or the Mithral Golem, to name a couple), a 35th level character with only +4 arrows might as well not even bother showing up.

Zad's AA is only 21st, and he's finding the +5 bonus to be limiting.

But regardless, this isn're about optimal archer builds. I've always ruled that the ability worked with the spell starting at the point of the arrows landing...otherwide you get wacky effects with lightning bolts and cones of cold.

More later, perhaps. I'm going to lunch.

 

[Silveras]

Imbue arrow: Its usefulness is dependent upon 2 factors: the DM's use of interesting and challenging locations, and the Player's imagination and willingness to do more than point-and-shoot. Consider how many times you have clear line-of-sight out to the limit of some spells. Not very often; much more often, you have some kind of block. Imbuing an arrow is not something you do as a matter of course; it is something you do when the circumstances call for it.

Using Deep Slumber, for example. The AA is with a party sent to infiltrate a tower. Atop the tower are guards. The AA *could* try to kill all the guards, but if any survived, the chance of surprise is gone. Deep Slumber at the center of the tower roof is a better choice, but you don't have line-of-sight (regardless of range) to the spot you want. Time to imbue an arrow with Deep Slumber and fire up, so it lands atop the tower. Presto !

Touch spells: Touch spells are not allowed because many of them are balanced by requiring you to get up close into melee to use them (Cures, or Inflicts, etc.) instead of having saving throws. Being able to cast them from a safe distance defeats that balance, IMHO, which is why they are not included in the list of spells you can imbue into an arrow.

 

[Nail]

Touch spells: Touch spells are not allowed because many of them are balanced by requiring you to get up close into melee to use them (Cures, or Inflicts, etc.) instead of having saving throws. Being able to cast them from a safe distance defeats that balance, IMHO, which is why they are not included in the list of spells you can imbue into an arrow.

Understood.

But you'll notice your list (short as it is) is composed of only divine touch spells. This is an arcane archer. What arcane spells would be out-of-balance, given the prereq.s of the PrC and the likely caster level of the arcane archer?

 

[Zad]

Actually now that I'm fully 21st, I am at +6. But the wierdness that I can't account for is 3.5 DR - it could cripple an archer or it could leave them as bad off as anyone else. Since I'm not going back to the early levels to find out, I won't be able to say.

The other thing with imbue is that usually you can just cast the spell and use its range and it's just as good. Some oddities with cones etc but still. Also, since you're not going to be a skilled caster, people will have an easy time saving against your spells and you'll be there wondering if you should have just done a full attack instead.

Perhaps imbue would be better if it let you imbue the spell and still take a full attack i.e. put four arrows into a target and throw a fireball in for good measure.

 

[Li Shenron]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silveras
Touch spells: Touch spells are not allowed because many of them are balanced by requiring you to get up close into melee to use them (Cures, or Inflicts, etc.) instead of having saving throws. Being able to cast them from a safe distance defeats that balance, IMHO, which is why they are not included in the list of spells you can imbue into an arrow.
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Understood.

But you'll notice your list (short as it is) is composed of only divine touch spells. This is an arcane archer. What arcane spells would be out-of-balance, given the prereq.s of the PrC and the likely caster level of the arcane archer?

I am with Nail on this. Furthermore, the Arcane Archer is not a low-requirement Prestige Class. It requires high BAB for a Wizard/Sorcerer and doesn't grant +1 spellcasting, which means that you have to get a lot of Wiz/Sor levels before you eventually learn a touch spell which is abusable.

Imbue Arrow is a PrCl special abilities I haven't seen anywhere else, and it should be something more special than what it is now, especially considering that Enchanted Arrows lost a lot with the 3.5 revision, and all the other abilities are usable only 1/day.

 

[Nail]

...since you're not going to be a skilled caster, people will have an easy time saving against your spells and you'll be there wondering if you should have just done a full attack instead.

Could you write about what you like about the PrC? Why did you take it? Why did you stick with it? What was cool about it?

[EDIT] Link to House Rules discussion of how to change the Arcane Archer.

 

[Zad]

Could you write about what you like about the PrC? Why did you take it? Why did you stick with it? What was cool about it?

Sure, if you want to hear me babble. Bear in mind we used the progression that I listed in the house rules forum. I think it comes down to that I ended up liking it for the environment I played it in. The class itself was in the low power-to-balanced range originally, and in 3.5 has been cut off at the knees.

Our campaign started at the release of 3.0. I was thinking about an archer character. Then the DMG came out and I saw the arcane archer and I was smitten - here was a way to solve the DR problem with an endless supply of magic arrows. So I set up the character to head for it. I took 2 levels of fighter, then picked up wizard and kept them fairly close, so that I could take the prestige class when I was 4/4. (Level 4 fighter having specialization of course so that's why.)

Somewhere along the way, we decided it made more sense to be a sorcerer rather than a wizard, and the DM and I just waved our hands and it was done.

The good: I did have an endless supply of magical arrows. I also liked the flavor of it, and that was heightened by the way the DM implemented it in our campaign world.

The bad: There were several

1. GMW made this ability nearly irrelevant. We had casters who could cast it, and their arrows were better than mine.

2. There were times my arrows were not enough to penetrate DR for the things we were fighting (and they were appropriate encounters) but a GMW arrow could.

3. Imbue turned out to be nearly useless. I couldn't imbue anything that didn't make more sense just to cast on its own range, and I was too weak a caster to make a spell have a reasonable saving throw DC.

4. As a caster, I was no good at all. I had some utility spells and stuck with them. This would have been much worse had we used the DMG standard AA class.

We went epic just about the time that 3.5 came out. I was, and am, concerned about the AA and 3.5. The main ability of enchanting arrows is now completely negated by having a magic bow, and probably a better bow than the character could enchant arrows at given their level. The class as written in the DMG is nearly useless.

Also, the archer has problems with the various types of DR but how that will play out has yet to be seen, and I may not have a good perspective.

If Imbue Arrow was a feat, you could do a lot better with an ftr/wiz/eldritch knight. On the other hand, the PrC Nifft proposed was great.