Arcane Divine dual-casting classes

[Empirate]

Sorry Chum, it's been written in stone. Do you qualify for the class? No? Then you lose all class features. Could you take a new level in it RIGHT NOW if you had the xp? No? Then you lose all class features. Simply having Power Attack in the past does not mean you currently "have" it just like being good in the past doesn't mean you currently have a good alignment.

Apart from the Paladin example, which just isn't pertinent, let's take a look: if I have the Power Attack feat and get Str damaged below 13, do I still have PA? Sure, it says so right on my character sheet!

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

You don't lose a feat just because you don't fulfill a prerequisite anymore. You just can't use it for as long as that prerequisite remains unfulfilled. Nowhere in any PrC's requirements does it say "must be able to use all the feats that are listed above RIGHT NOW".

If I'm a Blackguard and get Str damaged by a Shadow, so now I'm Str 12 until I get a Lesser Restoration. I can't use PA for the time being, but I sure as hell can use my Blackguard class features (spells etc.)! What's more, if I happen to gain enough XP to level up, I can take another Blackguard level just fine RIGHT NOW, because I do have the PA, Cleave, and Improved Sunder, even though I can't use them until that cleric gets his butt over here.
Heck, he doesn't even have to cast Lesser Restoration, a simple Bull's Strength would be just fine. Or maybe he can lend me those Gauntlets of Ogre Strength of his, and I'll be great.
[funnily, by RAW I couldn't take the Great Cleave feat RIGHT NOW even if my levelup permits me to choose another feat. But no sane DM would disallow it, I wager]

Another question to you: do you really want to introduce even more bookkeeping into effects that temporarily change ability scores?

 

[the Jester]

Sure you can. Why not? Just don't lose the item in question, or you'll lose the PrC's benefits.

What Empirate says is correct.

Let's say you have 12 strength. You can put on a Gauntlets of Ogre Str +1 to get 13. This qualifies you for power attack. Should you ever take the gloves off, or for some other reason not have the ability to qualify for power attack you lose power attack and everything you've gained based on power attack 9such as cleave) and any class features you've gained as a result of qualifying for power attack.

This is written (somewhere) and is Law.

Where is it written?

I recall this being a point of contention in 3.x throughout and never being satisfied with the argument that magic items counted for meeting prereqs. Or perhaps I house ruled against it. But I don't recall ever seeing a rules citation backing this up. I could be wrong.

N.B. Customer service inquiries and the like are not rules citations.

 

[Visigani]

Christ people... It's complete warrior, page 16... it's spelled out clear as day:

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the
class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class. The character
retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as
any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses
that the class provided.


Having 13 Str is a requirement for certain prestige classes because 13 str is a requirement for power attack, which is a requirement for prestige classes.


It says "An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class."

Note: "Loss of an ability". Even if you still have the feat power attack, you no longer have the ABILITY to power attack. If you lack the ability you lose the class.

 

[Empirate]

Power Attack is not an 'ability', whatever that is supposed to be - it's not a game term, unlike 'ability score'. Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't grant Power Attack, they grant +2 to Str. If you qualify for Power Attack using those gauntlets, then sell them, that doesn't mean you lose Power Attack. It only means you cannot use it anymore - except to qualify for prestige classes or anything else merely requiring you possess the feat.

Blackguard prereqs:

Requirements

To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment

Any evil.
Base Attack Bonus

+6.
Skills

Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks.
Feats

Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack.

Str 13+? Not in evidence. If I somehow manage to just have the feats required, that's enough. Note that in the prerequisites of the Cleave and Improved Sunder feats themselves, Str 13 is a separate requirement on top of Power Attack. For Blackguard, it isn't. What does that tell you?

Another thing: Some feats can be taken if you don't fulfill the prerequisites. Monks can explicitly take Stunning Fist at first level even though their BAB probably isn't +8, Rangers can take Two-Weapon Fighting even if they have Dex 6.
Does a Ranger/Tempest with the two-weapon combat style (and wearing light armor) somehow lose the benefits of the Tempest prestige class when his Dex is below 13?


BTW, thanks for the Complete Warrior citation - that should defuse the Jester's doubts, at least.

 

[Visigani]

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A
character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc
barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill
(gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat
feat at the same time.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13
because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power
Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met.


Bold is mine "Use the Power attack feat". This includes using the power attack feato to qualify for prestige classes.


Failing this, use the smell test. Can someone who is feebleminded and unable to cast high level spells on account of being a drooling idiot still use that caster level to acquire that prestige class?

The plain answer is "No". If you're slobbering on yourself and unable to, you know, form a coherent thought, then you shouldn't be able to turn around and take a level in arch mage.

Do you still "have" those caster levels? Yes. However, you are unable to use them due to your lowered ability scores and therefore cannot qualify for the prestige class. Because of this you lose the class features and the like that prestige class offers.

 

[the Jester]

Christ people... It's complete warrior, page 16...

Fair enough, I must have house ruled against it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Christ people... It's complete warrior, page 16... it's spelled out clear as day:

Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character
to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position
where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the
class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a
prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features
or other special abilities granted by the class. The character
retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as
any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses
that the class provided.


Having 13 Str is a requirement for certain prestige classes because 13 str is a requirement for power attack, which is a requirement for prestige classes.


It says "An alignment change, levels lost because of character
death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important
ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible
to advance farther in a prestige class."

Note: "Loss of an ability". Even if you still have the feat power attack, you no longer have the ABILITY to power attack. If you lack the ability you lose the class.

I think where you would lose the PrC is if the lost item actually granted something required to enter. Say, a Ring of Evasion and a PrC that required Evasion. Lose the ring and you lose access to all PrC abilities.

 

[Jimlock]

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the
indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus,
or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A
character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she
gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc
barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill
(gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat
feat at the same time.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13
because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power
Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met.


Bold is mine "Use the Power attack feat". This includes using the power attack feato to qualify for prestige classes.


Failing this, use the smell test. Can someone who is feebleminded and unable to cast high level spells on account of being a drooling idiot still use that caster level to acquire that prestige class?

The plain answer is "No". If you're slobbering on yourself and unable to, you know, form a coherent thought, then you shouldn't be able to turn around and take a level in arch mage.

Do you still "have" those caster levels? Yes. However, you are unable to use them due to your lowered ability scores and therefore cannot qualify for the prestige class. Because of this you lose the class features and the like that prestige class offers.

IMO, this POV is quite irrational, but let me explain why.

Ability score penalties and damage happen all the time. In almost every combat someone loses points in an ability. To a D&D adventurer, this is everyday life.

Also... a PrC is not some magical trinket you just can't used because it's jammed. A PrC is experience and know-how in a certain domain of expertise. A character is supposed to have studied, to have practiced, to have trained... so as to be able to do and be what a given PrC is and does.

The way you describe things, PrC-loss should happen in almost every combat, cause plenty of PrCs require plenty of feats that require a certain ability score. A lot of PrCs that provide spell progression require the character to be able to cast spells of a given level, or even specific spells. When a caster loses points in his primary ability (INT or WIS or CHA) he loses the ability to cast those spells MOMENTARILY. Does he seize to be the PrC he is?

No, just as the wizard does not seize to be a wizard even if his INT drops to 9. Even if INT drops to 4, he still keeps the telepathic link with his familiar, he can still talk to his familiar, he can still use spellcraft... he is still a wizard.


They still know the spells, because once the ability score comes back to normal, they are still able to cast the required spells. (otherwise the spells would have been removed from their mind).
Now, if we're talking about a cleric that turns into an ex-cleric, that certainly changes things, because he now loses PERMANENTLY the ability to cast a required spell or spells from a certain level.

IMO, this is one of the reasons they removed the ability score requirements from 2nd to 3.x (as far as classes are concerned) ...it can simply cause a mess.

Honestly, I do not believe it was the designers' intention to make PCs and NPCs lose PrCs every other round, cause this is what would happen if you played the game, the way you describe.

Moerever, what you claim is not spelled out explicitly in the text you provided. I admit that one can read it the way you do, but under no circumstances is it "written in stone" as you claim it is.

RAI and logic comes into play, and my logic says that an experienced fighter shouldn't "forget" what he gained throughout training and experience, simply because his biceps have been temporarily weekend due to a spell cast on him.

 

[Visigani]

So despite it saying, clearly, you lose all class features save BAB, hp etc... it means the entire opposite because it would be... inconvenient to the players?

 

[Jimlock]

So despite it saying, clearly, you lose all class features save BAB, hp etc...

clearly? clearly what? how?

it means the entire opposite because it would be... inconvenient to the players?

That's not what I said. Read my post again if you may.