D&D (2024) Arcane/Divine/Primal Spell Lists: Are the Benefits Real?

[Dausuul]

And anything that makes sorcerers care about schools is a net loss to the flavor and theme of the sorcerer.

Not just sorcerers. It's a flavor fail for every spellcasting class except wizards. Why does a druid care about the distinction between transmutation and abjuration? Why does a cleric care, or a warlock, or a bard?

The eight schools were originally relevant to wizards and no one else, and that's how it should be.

 

[Kobold Stew]

As @FitzTheRuke pointed out in another thread, themed spell lists are great from a marketing point of view, since they allow the selling of spell cards, that are not class specific but also require more than onepurchase for completeness -- a happy balance between corporate greed and playable utility (my words, not his).

 

[Cadence]

5 is also how MTG does it and they are under the same roof.

The thing I like most about this is imagining the D&D equivalent of the MtG "Council of Colors", and finding out whichever poor D&D staffer on Twitter gets bombed with all the related questions like Maro does on Blogatog.

With 5, they can easily future proof it by adding new lists if they include the new lists and classes that use them in the same books.

And I want to know what the spell list equivalent of Wastes would be (is that a new school, or is that martials ).

 

[FallenRX]

They are just trying to copy PF2E without anything that actually made it work there, 5e's way is far better and this unnecessarily just feels worse than using it.

 

[Undrave]

I think it'll just result in all the casters just taking the same 'Best' spells over and over again.

 

[Yaarel]

I'd call it Astral and have Psionics, True Names, and Words of Creation linked to the Astral and Ethereal planes.

Bards would have access to all Astral spells except Conjuration.
Psions would have access to all Astral spells except Illusion
Ardents wold be Astral halfcasters

Force including telekinesis and gravity is the fifth element, sometimes called Ether, that associates with the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal creatures are essentially living force constructs being physical yet immaterial.

Where the Conjuration school means telekinesis, fly, force, force construct, and magical energy, it associates with the spirit world of the Ethereal Plane. The Ethereal Plane is moreso part of Planar magic, but there is affinity with Conjuration. Where the Evocation school means the four elements − earth, water, air, and fire/sunlight − there is affinity between Evocation and the Elemental Planes.

The Astral Plane including its alignment Dominions is realms of pure thought, so has affinity with the Enchantment school of the mind effects.

Nevertheless, Divination is the go-to school for Scry and other remote-presence spacetime magic like Teleportation and Planar. Fate magic like Bless to navigating timelines and temporal distortions like Haste are also aspects of Scry and Teleportation respectively. All of it employing Divination.

 

[Minigiant]

Force including telekinesis and gravity is the fifth element, sometimes called Ether, that associates with the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal creatures are essentially living force constructs being physical yet immaterial.

Where the Conjuration school means telekinesis, fly, force, force construct, and magical energy, it associates with the spirit world of the Ethereal Plane. The Ethereal Plane is moreso part of Planar magic, but there is affinity with Conjuration. Where the Evocation school means the four elements − earth, water, air, and fire/sunlight − there is affinity between Evocation and the Elemental Planes.

The Astral Plane including its alignment Dominions is realms of pure thought, so has affinity with the Enchantment school of the mind effects.

Nevertheless, Divination is the go-to school for Scry and other remote-presence spacetime magic like Teleportation and Planar. Fate magic like Bless to navigating timelines and temporal distortions like Haste are also aspects of Scry and Teleportation respectively. All of it employing Divination.

The forcing of all casters and planes into 3 categories is 90% of the problem.

Separate Astral and Ethereal from Arcane into Astral or Psionic for Bards, Psions, Dancers, and Ardents.

Separate Elemental Chaos and Inner Planes from Primal into Elemental for Sorcerers, Wu Jen, and 4 Elements Monks.

Separate Lower Planes, Feydark, and Dark Demiplanes from Arcane, Divine, and Primal into Shadow or Eldritch for Warlocks and Hexblade.

If WOTC is tying spell lists to planes, well D&D is not a game with only 2 planar types. Base D&D has 4 types of planes. So that is at least 4 plus Arcane.

 

[Yaarel]

The forcing of all casters and planes into 3 categories is 90% of the problem.

Separate Astral and Ethereal from Arcane into Astral or Psionic for Bards, Psions, Dancers, and Ardents.

Separate Elemental Chaos and Inner Planes from Primal into Elemental for Sorcerers, Wu Jen, and 4 Elements Monks.

Separate Lower Planes, Feydark, and Dark Demiplanes from Arcane, Divine, and Primal into Shadow or Eldritch for Warlocks and Hexblade.

If WOTC is tying spell lists to planes, well D&D is not a game with only 2 planar types. Base D&D has 4 types of planes. So that is at least 4 plus Arcane.

Enchantment ≈ Astral (thoughts)
Conjuration ≈ Ethereal (fifth element: force)
Evocation ≈ Elemental (earth, water, air, fire)
Transmutation ≈ Lifeforms (plants, animals, shapeshifting, healing)
Divination ≈ Spacetime (includes Planar contact and Planar travel, generally)
Necromancy ≈ Planar Darkside (Undead, Fiend, and Aberration) (namely Shadow, Infernal, and Farrealm)

Illusion is the alteration of Reality itself, and the difference between subjective reality and objective reality blur. Illusory phenomena tend to be psychologically compelling and possibly real.

 

[Minigiant]

Enchantment ≈ Astral (thoughts)
Conjuration ≈ Ethereal (fifth element: force)
Evocation ≈ Elemental (earth, water, air, fire)
Transmutation ≈ Lifeforms (plants, animals, shapeshifting, healing)
Divination ≈ Spacetime (includes Planar contact and Planar travel, generally)
Necromancy ≈ Planar Darkside (Undead, Fiend, and Aberration) (namely Shadow, Infernal, and Farrealm)

Illusion is the alteration of Reality itself, and the difference between subjective reality and objective reality blur. Illusory phenomena tend to be psychologically compelling and possibly real.

That could work in another game but it doesn't match how D&D magic works.

It runs into the same problem.

The idea of power source spell list is great.
Forcing yourself to fit the base 9 full and half caster into exactly 3 spell lists in 2022 is bad.

D&D has 6 types of planes..4of which are "core". And then there are "core" concepts of subtypes of planes

• Material Planes
• Transitive Planes
• Outer Planes
• Inner Planes
• Demiplanes
• Anomalous Planes

You can get classes and races to line up with them as you can add more or less. Spell schools, due to being hard locked at 8, is to rigid to line up with the 6 types of planes. Especially with Wizards and Arcane existing outside the planar categorization.

 

[Yaarel]

@Minigiant

These definitions for each Spell School derive from the bottom up from the mechanics and themes of D&D itself.

Go thru every spell in the game (and every feature of every class, every race, and every feat) and group them together by theme. You end up with these categories.

Notice, that Abjuration is missing because it is unlike the other themes. It is an end rather than a means. The other themes are means. Abjuration is a tag that indicates purpose. For example, Cure Wounds 1st-Slot Transmutation (Healing, Abjuration), Alarm 1st-Slot Divination (Scry, Abjuration), Antimagic Sphere 8th-Slot Conjuration (Dweomer, Abjuration), and so on.

Broadly speaking the themes are Mind (Enchantment and Illusion), Matter (Evocation), and Life (Transmutation), plus Spirit (Divination and Conjuration), plus Nonmagic. Then there is a kind "Anti" theme (Necromancy as anti-mind, anti-matter, and anti-life).

Even the Nonmagic forms Mental (Knowledge and Persuasion), Physical (Weapons and Equipment), and Life (Athletics, Survival).

The Spell Schools correspond this deep structure of the D&D game.