arcane fire and summoned creatures question

[Fyrm]

To put it simply, how does arcane fire enteract with summoned creatures?



To be more specific:

1. If I have out a hell hound, will an attack I make through it trigger the vulnerability from arcane fire?
2. If I have out that same hell hound, does the damage from starting your turn near it trigger the vulnerability from arcan fire?
3. If I have the rimetongue caller PP, does the damage from the aura benifet from the effects of arcane fire?

Thank you for your time. I have searched around for a while for the answers to these questions, but I have not been able to find any answers. Any help would be apreciated.

 

[DracoSuave]

Some very good questions, so let me address them individually.

1)

When you summon a creature, any attacks it makes, you are making through the creature (see, rules for Summoning keyword). Amongst other things this means that your feats that key off of you attacking with powers with the Fire keyword also key off of summons that attack with powers with the Fire keyword.

If the power that summoned the hellhound has the Arcane and Fire keywords, than yes, Arcane Fire will trigger. Lacking either of those two, it will not.

2 and 3)

Arcane Fire will only trigger when you hit with an arcane fire power. Most 'at the start of your turn do blah' effects do not involve attack rolls, and therefore do not hit. No hit = No Arcane Fire.

 

[Fyrm]

Thanks. That looks in line with what i was thinking, but i was hoping for different answers to 2 and 3. i had a fun idea for summoning out one of those creatures in the class acts: wizards on summons that has the "if an opponent starts there turn near this creature, it takes some fire damage" while i have the rhimetongue caller PP to get a damage cycles going. Looks like ill have to do it without the 5 extra damage from arcane fire.

 

[DracoSuave]

Oh wait, my bad.

If a monster has vulnerable 5 cold, any cold damage will be boosted.

I thought you meant could you trigger it with a personal aura, which is a different question.

So to revise: Yes, vulnerable 5 cold will increase aura damage.

 

[spayne]

Oh wait, my bad.

If a monster has vulnerable 5 cold, any cold damage will be boosted.

I thought you meant could you trigger it with a personal aura, which is a different question.

So to revise: Yes, vulnerable 5 cold will increase aura damage.

The vulnerability from arcane fire will not work with auras because the vulnerability specifically only works for the first arcane power that you use against the target. Using a power means when you cast/expend it. An aura does not count as using a power.

 

[DracoSuave]

You're right.

That's what I get for compartmentalizing it as a replacement for Wintertouched/Lasting Cold.

That said, if you're going for a Rimetongue Caller, you're better off with Wintertouched/Lasting Cold. Arcane Fire should be swapped out at level 11, where iyour new combo WILL work with your auras. Then grab a weapon/implement with the ability to make your damage cold and you're golden--it will change all damage to cold damage... including the afformentioned hellhounds.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Then grab a weapon/implement with the ability to make your damage cold and you're golden--it will change all damage to cold damage... including the afformentioned hellhounds.

It will IF you are attacking with the weapon/implement. Making an attack through a summons is not generally going to be an attack using a weapon YOU hold, so for instance a Frost Weapon won't help you here.

When it comes to implements you may get some arguments. Technically it probably should work, but you should make sure your DM is on the same page. Some aren't!

 

[DracoSuave]

Most summoning powers have the Implement keyword. That means that damage dealt by that power is dealt by that accessory. Subsequant effects of that power are included in that, same as with every other power in the game, and nothing in the summoning keyword contradicts that.

Take:

Power (At-Will ✦ Cold): Free Action. All damage dealt by this weapon is cold damage. Another free action returns the damage to normal.

All damage that is the result of a power is considered dealt by the accessory used with that power. Damage caused by adjacency to a flaming sphere is still damage dealt by that accessory.

So... you use that accessory with Summon Hellhounds. Now all damage dealt by that accessory is cold damage, and by extension, all damage dealt by Summon Hellhounds. The hellhounds are an effect of that power, and therefore damage dealt by them is damage dealt by the power, and damage dealt by the accessory. This makes all their damage cold damage, and that, in turn, makes the power acquire the cold keyword.


The weapon does not have to make physical contact in order for that ability to work. All that is required is that it is the legal accessory of a power that has the Weapon or Implement keyword, and for that power to deal damage. If the user of the power is a wizard, then a Staff of Frost can legally be used as an implement, and its powers can be legally used with Implement powers.

In order for a summoning to -hot- get the benefits of your implement, it would have to explicitly say so, otherwise the Implement keyword allows you full rights to do so. Specific beats general... the specific Implement keyword on the power allows you to use it.