Arcane Power excerpt: Summoning

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I welcome Rachel, our newest member in the thread necromancer guild!

1) Encounter & Dailies where you select a pre-existing monster (the higher the lvl, the more powerful) that is *autonomous*. It follows simple commands issued via free (or perhaps minor) actions from it's summoner.

Pre-existing monster means that the player needs access to the Monster Manual and has a full stat block to account in addition to his own character. That's why 4E doesn't do it this way.

6) Additional spell powers which can enhance/alter the summoned monster as well as some fun Utility spells.

It might be interesting to actually create at-will, encounter and daily powers that work off a summoned creature. Maybe a new multi-class only class or a special build option for some classes? *ponders*

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Summoning which requires using DM books was the worst thing introduced in 3rd edition. (it was fun at the beginning, but rapidly became annoying)

It is annoying enough, if players expoit the PHB for optimization, when you start using the MM as well things break down very fast (aka. Druid)

JFI. in ADnD you couls summon monsters too, but usually there was a risk that turned it against you and IIRC the DM choses the monster, not the player

 

[Turtlejay]

Yeah, having summons, animal companions, familiars, etc that had self contained stat blocks was one of the big changes I looked forward to in 4e. Playing a 10th level Conjurer will burn you out on looking up and tracking stuff like that pretty quick. I also loved leveling up my sorcerer. . .and his lizard?

I do think the Summons could be expanded. Encounter summons that are shadows or echos of creatures. Maybe minions. Utilities that are summons, kind of how Druids get utilities that are shapechangers.

Jay

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I think I would prefer summons that worked like this:

<stuff>

Just some ideas. I don't hate the Arcane Power iteration, just prefer this one. It does add an extra combatant to the field, but the feel is more classic summoner to me.

While it might be fun to you, for a lot of people it's just a LOT of extra book keeping. They have to track all sorts of unique stats, have a whole stat block, look at modifiers and penalties, etc... In the current system it's fairly easy because they can just say "Okay, so it has my defenses, which are already written down here, plus I know them by heart". They're also based off the caster's HP and have easily understood attacks written down in the text of the power.

Basically, WotC decided to simplify and streamline the system so that you don't end up waiting 10 minutes for the Druid or Wizard to deal with all his little summoned creatures, or to wade through all the math and stats just to realize that if he attacks with the summons he can't actually shift away from the Bugbear this round because of the action penalty incurred by something or other...

 

[Rachel]

One thing I just learned: to many, my way = bookkeeping that they don't care for.
I may be alone on this but I don't see it as a burden. I would be happy to keep a sheet on the stats of my chosen summons. But thats just me!
Also, requiring the summoner player to have the MM....as a player I've read all the books. ALL. Even the *lore* sections requiring DC checks to "know". This is an acceptable "breach of protocol" to me (if it is one) b/c alot of the lore flavor is repetitive with the monster's description or doesn't add that much anyway. In other cases, I already know the lore.
Also, as far as waiting ten minutes for the Druid/Wiz, in my way you can only have 1 summon out at a time, period. Sure, you may have to choose which one, but that's no different then any 4ed player trying to choose which power to use. Players should know their summons just like they should know their powers...
And, assuming one summoner in your PC party, what bookkeeping are you really adding? You're adding like 1 extra monster to the battle. Oooh, scary you guys! That's pretty difficult for a skilled DM to handle.

Thank you Mustrum_Ridcully and everyone else for welcoming me in!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I hope you don´t get it wrong:

Reading the whole MM is something a player should NOT do. It takes away a lot of fun for the player or forces the DM to adjust monsters, because otherwise the players excactly know how to fight them.

Before 3rd edition, a player was expected to stay away from the MM or the DMG.

Also you face the problem, that the summoner has the right tool for every job easily making other people redundant. So at the end of the day, more fun for one person usually results in less fun for all other persons.

So as a general rule, summons out of the MM should not be allowed. On the other hand, if you want too keep track and your DM has no problems allowing you to know every monster, than this could be fine for your group.

I usually don´t play D&D as a player very often.... because i know too much, which takes away from my fun. But this is just a personal opinion. I just tell you, so you know it is not just the bookkeeping thing which makes summons out of the MM problematic.
As an experienced 3.5 DM, i know, it causes more problems than it has merits. Maybe look at trailblazer how summoning and polymorph is done. It is enough bookkeeping and adapatability for the summoner. It however doesn´t force the player to look into the MM. I don´t know how it plays out, but i guess its a good middleground.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Turn Undead? Rebuke Undead? Damnit! This is a thread about Arcane characters.

And if players are explicitely not meant to read the Monster Manuals, what are you meant to do with players who also DM?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you read carefully: i prefer other games as players as it is annoying to know everything. And it is just my personal point of view. I just prefer to use the merit of having PHB and MM distinct from each other so everyone knows what to read...

if you prefer it other way... fine, I just have a strange feeling when a player browses through the MM.


Or did you mean to use turn undead against thread necromancy?

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Turn Undead was indeed against Thread Necromancy . But I like there to be more than one possible DM - and there are some systems that multiple people would like to run. (And never mind that I can't help but figure systems out.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Turn Undead? Rebuke Undead? Damnit! This is a thread about Arcane characters.

And if players are explicitely not meant to read the Monster Manuals, what are you meant to do with players who also DM?

They are turned to insanity. More specifically, schizophrenia.