Arcane Trickster--Specialist Wiz or Generalist?

[Mistwell]

Does anyone have suggestions for alternate spellcasters for arcane trixter?

Obviously it's arcane based, so that rules out the divine casters. Within arcane you have the choice of Int based or Cha based. Int has obvious advantages for a rogue, there are Cha skills, but personally I'd rather have the skill points than +2 to a skill check.

Are there any other Int based Arcane casters that would be compatable with Arcane Trixter?

edit: I was looking at the alternate classes in SRD and the 'spellcaster' would be intesting. It seems you can chose arcane/divine, Int/Wis/Cha, and choose spells known from any spell list (when compared to the sorcerer) in exchange for familiar and a few spells per day.

I have heard many people mention that a level of Guild Thief is useful. For example this quote:

Time and time again, I've come back to Arcane Tricksters. I've played them more than once in our campaigns, but for one reason or another I never manage to get them above level 12 or 13 (when they really start to get fun). Anyway, I usually use a build like this:

Rog1/Wiz5/Guild Thief1/Arcane Trickster 10/Archmage3

I take mastery of elements first, then spell powers. I usually focus on sneak attacking with flame arrows and such; you can dish out 27d6 a round with flame arrows if you can catch an opponent flat footed. I love sneak attacking with ranged touch spells because most opponents will have an AC of 10 for the attack, almost guaranteeing a hit. The build is also a blast to play; Wizards get some great spells for helping out sneaking, such as Improved Invis and Dimension door. I built a REALLY nasty assassin for my PC's that we never got to use (we stopped playing before they had to fight him) that used improved invisibility, nondetection, a custom spell that masked the caster's scent, and fly to hover a couple feet above ground. He would sneak up on the PC's and use pick pocket to plant stones with Silence cast on them somewhere in the PC's equipment, then once he had gotten one on all of them he started sneak attacking them. The PC's wouldn't be able to see, hear, smell, or use tremorsense and most types of blindsight to find him.

There is a thread here that mentions Warlock with an Arcane Trickster:

http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-111662.html

I think Shadowthief would be a good roll-playing choice to go into Arcane Trickster.

There are 6 AT builds listed here (using things like Virtuoso, Spellsinger, and Assassin as variant builds):

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=132214

Hope that helps.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Ahhhh! How can you possibly think to get rid of Evocation? Using Evo spells and combining it with Sneak Attack is part of the neatest part of the class.

I agree with the others that General is the best way to go. Personally, as an Arcane Trickster, I'd prefer Enchantment/Evo over all the others. Getting rid of Conjuration/Necromancer I think would be the best choice, excluding Generalist, that is.

Enchantment really does nothing for me since a lot of the spells don't "scale up" very well (though I do like Dominate Person). Giving up Evocation is hard, but I would not give up Conjuration--the "orb" spells are all conjurations. Need something without SR that does damage? Orbs are great. This is a Living Greyhawk character, and since LG seems to love SR, orb spells are practically required.

I considered getting rid of Necromancy. Losing False Life and Magic Jar really hurts. And I should probably give up Necromancy instead of Evocation.

So....

I think I'm going generalist.


Thanks for all the input, everyone!

 

[Dog Moon]

Originally posted by Barendd Nobeard
Enchantment really does nothing for me since a lot of the spells don't "scale up" very well (though I do like Dominate Person).

I mainly like Enchantment for roguish characters just because I think a lot of Rogues should have those kinds of spells. I always play more charismatic rogues than dextrous, so when I play Rogue/Wizards, they don't take the stealth spells, but the enchantments. If I can't Bluff my way out of a situation, I Suggestion them or something. So I know all people aren't like this; it's just my way of playing them.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

I mainly like Enchantment for roguish characters just because I think a lot of Rogues should have those kinds of spells. I always play more charismatic rogues than dextrous, so when I play Rogue/Wizards, they don't take the stealth spells, but the enchantments. If I can't Bluff my way out of a situation, I Suggestion them or something. So I know all people aren't like this; it's just my way of playing them.

Unfortunately, I already built him and can't change his stats (per LG rules, since I haven't played him since the last conversion, I can convert his classes to anything I want, but not change race or stats). His CHA is low and his DEX is high. So, no "social rogue" (as we call them) for me. Which is too bad, because a "social rogue" would be a great character for Living Greyhawk. Except for the inevitable combats.

 

[Jarrod]

You definitely want:

Evo. If nothing else, _contingency_.
Conjuration. Orbs. Fogs. Orbs. Teleportation. Orbs. Dimension door.
Transmutation. Buff spells.
Necromancy. The tasty touch spells; ray of enfeeblement. Enervation. False life.
Illusion. Mmmm invisibility... silent image.... GREATER invisibility.
Divination. True strike. Arcane sight. Unluck is fun, but... and besides, you can't give it up anyway.
Enchantment. Very nice, but you could almost give them up... the all-or-nothing save mechanic is annoying.
Abjuration. Wow do you want this. You'll need defenses, and abjuration is all about the defenses.

So I could see going Diviner (True Strike, Assay Spell Resistance, and Rary's are good choices) and giving up Enchantment. Anything else... ow.

 

[Jack Simth]

You definitely want:

Evo. If nothing else, _contingency_.

Oh, you use Illusion for Contingency - it's Evocation/6, so Greater Shadow Evocation (Illusion/8) can fake it.... although at a much higher cost.

 

[Patlin]

Enchantment really does nothing for me since a lot of the spells don't "scale up" very well (though I do like Dominate Person). Giving up Evocation is hard, but I would not give up Conjuration--the "orb" spells are all conjurations. Need something without SR that does damage? Orbs are great. This is a Living Greyhawk character, and since LG seems to love SR, orb spells are practically required.

Orbs are fantastic. They are the bread and butter spells of the arcane trickster. However, if 15 zombies are rushing your party they don't really do you much good -- that calls for a fireball!

One of the things I love about the AT is he doesn't fall into the rogue trap of becoming useless in a combat with creatures immune to critical hits.

 

[Jarrod]

Oh, you use Illusion for Contingency - it's Evocation/6, so Greater Shadow Evocation (Illusion/8) can fake it.... although at a much higher cost.

We've actually had that question come up. I suppose you could auto-fail your save...

We also had questions about Shadow Teleportation (does 20% get left behind?) and the like.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I suppose you could auto-fail your save...

This question comes up from time to time, but no you can't auto-fail your save against your own illusion.

 

[Mistwell]

This question comes up from time to time, but no you can't auto-fail your save against your own illusion.

Yes, I believe, and many people believe, you can fail your save for your own illusion. Particularly for one that is partially real and you KNOW more than anyone else that it has an aspect of reality to it.

I think, given the number of times we've had that discussion and the number of people who disagree with you on this topic, that you would at least be fair to the guy and mention that many people disagree with you on that topic (though others agree with you).