Archdevil Moloch (Mordenkainen's tome of foes preview from Dragon+)

[MechaTarrasque]

I think the main question is "what can the PC's do to get him to stand and fight?" His write up makes me think he is pretty "purpose-driven", and picking fights with PC's is not really his purpose (at least from his standpoint). Unless the PC's have a contract with 10,000 yugoloths that he can pick from their cold, dead hands, I think he would head out as soon as things started to look rough.

 

[Erechel]

Ok, let's imagine three scenarios. And note, as per the DMG, Legendary actions can only be used by a creature at the END of another creature's turn.

Exactly.

Scenario #1: The paladin is alone, and Moloch is alone. Curiously, this means that Moloch can only use one Legendary action per round (at the end of the paladin's turn). Moloch shows up with a fly spell in effect. Can the paladin fly? If not, he's in a world of hurt. He's unlikely to ever break Moloch's concentration on the fly, and Moloch can re-cast it at will anyway. Smites don't usually apply to ranged attacks. Second question: can the paladin cover 120' of distance in a single turn and still melee attack? If not, he's probably dead. Moloch doesn't even need to fly. He casts wall of fire at will from 120' away. The paladin closes. Moloch uses a legendary to teleport another 120' back at the end of the paladin's turn. He then casts wall of fire again. Repeat until paladin is toast. To mix things up, Moloch could use the legendary to cast stinking cloud after the paladin closes. +3 Con, +5 Cha (aura of protection), no Con save proficiency = 60% chance the paladin loses his next turn. If the paladin fails the save, Moloch gets to pound him with 3 attacks and then repeats with the stinking cloud at the end of the vomiting paladin's turn. If the paladin ever makes the save, Moloch uses his regular round to teleport away another 120'. If Moloch ever takes serious damage, he uses both the legendary and the regular action to teleport away 120' each. He's now 240' back (and still has the flight option). Once he has distance, he regenerates all damage taken over a few rounds. Then back into the fray. A lone paladin just won't have the mobility to handle a creature that can make an attack and get 120' away every round (and regenerate once it's far enough back to be out of range).

Find Steed. Find greater steed, if the paladin is Level 13. Most likely, a paladin will be mounting his steed if encounters Moloch on an open ground. Jumping and Misty step, in case that it is a OA or OV paladin, if Moloch is flying at 30 feet. An OV paladin can also cast haste on himself and his steed. A hasted steed can move up to 180 feet (60 feet movement x3). Also, Moonbeam if he is a OA paladin. Protection from Evil and Good and Dispel Magic if it is a OD Paladin (he has the lesser impact). Aura of Warding against spell damage (OA). Vow of Enmity to give advantage to your attacks.(OV).

But just find steed will do the trick. And then, if it is a level 20 paladin, things get wores for Moloch: Avenging angel allows flying speed 60 feet (OV). It spends one action, and lasts for an hour. Holy Nimbus does 10 radiant damage against anyone in 30 feet of him. A hasted avenging angel just flies 120 feet per turn, and smites Moloch for 7d8 radiant damage. A level 20 paladin will just smash Moloch. And I'm not counting any magic weapons or items or even feats.

Scenario #2: The paladin has 3 companions (cleric, wizard, rogue). Now, Moloch can use all three of his Legendary actions per round. Moloch can still cast that wall of fire at will. The combat begins, and the rogue readies an action to fire his bow when an ally gets adjacent. Moloch legendaries to teleport 90' backwards. The wizard gets a spell off, but Moloch has high saves, magic resistance, and legendary resistance. Good luck to him. If the spell somehow got the paladin or cleric much closer to Moloch, he uses a 2nd legendary at the end of the wizard's turn to teleport another 120' back. If not, he uses his 2nd legendary to drop DC 21 stinking cloud on the party. If he manages to take out the paladin for a round, he uses his 3rd legendary at the END of the cleric's turn to teleport back in and prepares to smash him with a full round on his regular turn. When the rogue's turn comes around again, he might cop a sneak attack... but then he teleports another 120' away again. The paladin is never going to get adjacent, and if Moloch ever loses more than 120 HP... he teleports back 120' each on the rogue's/wizard's/paladin's turn with his 3 legendaries. He's now 360' back without even using his own regular round, and begins regenerating.

Wizard don't do damage against fiends... he just buffs his allies and control the battlefield. Haste. Enchant weapon. Fly. Summons. Cleric will do the same. Except when he doesn't, and he just fires guiding bolts for 9d6 against Moloch. And probably hits. Paladin could even cast Crusader's mantle, to grant the rogue's radiant damage, so the rogue can attack Moloch with radiant damage. A level 20 party will just be much, much better at doing this. A level 12 party could take Moloch with some effort, nevertheless.

Scenario #3: Moloch has half a dozen allies. And this is where it gets ugly. Note that Moloch can use his legendaries at the end of another CREATURE'S turn, not necessarily a PC's turn. Monsters, by RAW, all go on the same initiative count if they're the same type. So, Moloch (initiative count 15) is accompanied by 6 random meatshields, all going on initiative count 10. He can now perform all kinds of legendary shenanigans, because he can use all three legendaries on the same count after each one of his bodyguards acts. He can teleport into the party 120' away, whip somebody or try to take a bunch of them out for a round with stinking cloud, then immediately teleport 120' away again. The PCs don't even get an action off. It gets worse if a PC finished 30' away from Moloch when the triple legendary goes off in his bodyguards's turns. Moloch whips and drags them 30', then teleports 30', then whips and drags them another 30'. He has now separated a PC from the rest of the party by a 60' gap - and can do that every round, without even using his own regular turn. Bad news for the rogue or cleric, neither of whom is going to be making that DC 24 Str save... and they're now out of the paladin's protection aura too.

Moloch hasn't many followers or resources, for that matter. Divine Sense will allow a paladin to detect a fiend in a pinch. He will have probably zombies or low level minions for meatshields, and a respectable party can deal with them hastily. If not... they aren't just fighting Moloch, but their minions

And, of course, all of this assumes a paladin is present. If there's no paladin, it gets ugly. DC 21 fear breath is going to wreck barbarians, fighters, rogues, etc. Clerics and (some) warlocks can do radiant, but the 120' range of Moloch's at-will wall of fire is going to be an issue - and neither class is really capable of nova damage. If the party stays grouped, Moloch goes nuts with area effects (wall of fire, stinking cloud, breath weapon). If they spread out, he teleports 30 ft away from the most remote of them at the end of the 2nd-to-last PC's turn, whips them closer at the end of the last PC's turn, spends his regular turn pounding on them with all three attacks, then teleports away again at the end of the 1st PC's turn. Repeat as required.

Champions have Indomitable. Halflings have advantage against fear. Fighters and rogues have more ASI, and they could get feats such as Resilient. Berserkers have Mindless Rage. Clerics and Wizards have proficiency on Wisdom saves. Clerics can grant Bless and Calm emotions. Bards can pick anything they want (like Crusader's Mantle), and they are also excelent at buffing their allies. Fighters are just perfect damage dealers against Moloch: improved criticals, maneuvers or spells combined with ASI and feats. Warlocks are just incredibly damaging. Just imagine an Armor of Agathys at level 5: Magic Resistance is useless against it. A ranger has good attacks and spellcasting. 250 damage is something my fighter could do in 4 rounds, and he is level 5 (buffs+maneuvers+fighting style+Action Surge 2 attacks).

Heck, my Fighter can grapple the fiend, and he won't be able to resist half of the time (and I don't even have Expertise! When I reach level 6 Prodigy will allow me to be better than him at grappling; although my Bard friends usually improve my Skill checks with Bardic Inspiration. Better. A measley level 6 fighter. Imagine my character in 6 levels, when he hits 3 times per round. Funny thing, thanks to the Alert feat, my Borivik will probably win Initiative, and will never be surprised. And I've dumped Dexterity

In conclusion, I'm not saying that it is a walk in the park. I'm very sure my level 5 fighter won't survive against him. But... in 6-7 levels? Hell, yeah. It will be a difficult fight, but possible. Specially if the characters have investigated the demon first. At level 20? Easy. Really easy.

 

[Ranthalan]

Heh, tieflings and devil warlocks kinda prove them right.

Not unless playing Tieflings are causing players to become Satanists.

 

[Cyrinishad]

2nd. The assumption is that he will teleport away at the end of the first PC turn.

I don't think he would necessarily teleport away if the encounter begins within 50 ft., especially in a white-room scenario (he won't be able to really escape from Ranged Attacks)... I tend to think Stinking Cloud is a more effective use of his Legendary Action, because it causes the Area of Effect to become heavily obscured. Any PC within that Area of Effect effectively suffers from the Blinded condition, meaning that their attacks are made with Disadvantage, and attacks against them are made with Advantage.

 

[dave2008]

I intended the post as a response to the original idea of the HP being too low, and not necessarily to your particular post. Your quote was just handy. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No worries

Yowza!

I gave all of the archdevils and demon lords / princes a bit of a boost.

 

[dave2008]

Exactly.



Find Steed. Find greater steed, if the paladin is Level 13. Most likely, a paladin will be mounting his steed if encounters Moloch on an open ground. Jumping and Misty step, in case that it is a OA or OV paladin, if Moloch is flying at 30 feet. An OV paladin can also cast haste on himself and his steed. A hasted steed can move up to 180 feet (60 feet movement x3). Also, Moonbeam if he is a OA paladin. Protection from Evil and Good and Dispel Magic if it is a OD Paladin (he has the lesser impact). Aura of Warding against spell damage (OA). Vow of Enmity to give advantage to your attacks.(OV).

But just find steed will do the trick. And then, if it is a level 20 paladin, things get wores for Moloch: Avenging angel allows flying speed 60 feet (OV). It spends one action, and lasts for an hour. Holy Nimbus does 10 radiant damage against anyone in 30 feet of him. A hasted avenging angel just flies 120 feet per turn, and smites Moloch for 7d8 radiant damage. A level 20 paladin will just smash Moloch. And I'm not counting any magic weapons or items or even feats.



Wizard don't do damage against fiends... he just buffs his allies and control the battlefield. Haste. Enchant weapon. Fly. Summons. Cleric will do the same. Except when he doesn't, and he just fires guiding bolts for 9d6 against Moloch. And probably hits. Paladin could even cast Crusader's mantle, to grant the rogue's radiant damage, so the rogue can attack Moloch with radiant damage. A level 20 party will just be much, much better at doing this. A level 12 party could take Moloch with some effort, nevertheless.




Moloch hasn't many followers or resources, for that matter. Divine Sense will allow a paladin to detect a fiend in a pinch. He will have probably zombies or low level minions for meatshields, and a respectable party can deal with them hastily. If not... they aren't just fighting Moloch, but their minions



Champions have Indomitable. Halflings have advantage against fear. Fighters and rogues have more ASI, and they could get feats such as Resilient. Berserkers have Mindless Rage. Clerics and Wizards have proficiency on Wisdom saves. Clerics can grant Bless and Calm emotions. Bards can pick anything they want (like Crusader's Mantle), and they are also excelent at buffing their allies. Fighters are just perfect damage dealers against Moloch: improved criticals, maneuvers or spells combined with ASI and feats. Warlocks are just incredibly damaging. Just imagine an Armor of Agathys at level 5: Magic Resistance is useless against it. A ranger has good attacks and spellcasting. 250 damage is something my fighter could do in 4 rounds, and he is level 5 (buffs+maneuvers+fighting style+Action Surge 2 attacks).

Heck, my Fighter can grapple the fiend, and he won't be able to resist half of the time (and I don't even have Expertise! When I reach level 6 Prodigy will allow me to be better than him at grappling; although my Bard friends usually improve my Skill checks with Bardic Inspiration. Better. A measley level 6 fighter. Imagine my character in 6 levels, when he hits 3 times per round. Funny thing, thanks to the Alert feat, my Borivik will probably win Initiative, and will never be surprised. And I've dumped Dexterity

In conclusion, I'm not saying that it is a walk in the park. I'm very sure my level 5 fighter won't survive against him. But... in 6-7 levels? Hell, yeah. It will be a difficult fight, but possible. Specially if the characters have investigated the demon first. At level 20? Easy. Really easy.

That is what is so difficult with high CR monster design. There are so many PC and group options and combos that their effectiveness against a particular monster can very incredibly. We already have an example of a level 12 group of 6 PCs getting wrecked by Moloch and I am sure a group of 4 PCs tuned to taking him down could wreck him. It is really an impossible design space. However, in that regard I think Moloch is one of the better designed high level monsters (much more effective than the similar power pit fiend). He has a lot of options available to him to attack a group in different ways, that is always a good thing.

 

[Cyrinishad]

A level 20 paladin will just smash Moloch. And I'm not counting any magic weapons or items or even feats.

The level 20 paladin is definitely the optimal choice to battle Moloch, and when making these comparisons we should definitely not count magic items or feats... The CR or "balance" of the game does not take either of those things into account, so if the PCs have magic items and/or feats, Moloch needs to have magic items and/or feats, otherwise that CR 21 number goes right out the window.

The Paladin's Aura of Courage is clearly necessary to counter the Breath of Despair, and the Oath of Devotion Paladin's Aura of Devotion is probably the most effective defense against his various Charm effects.
I would also agree that the Oath of Vengeance Paladin's Avenging Angel ability is probably the most effective to counter Moloch's Teleport/Fly abilities, because anyone without Flying speed should expect to be dropped for 20d6 damage during the encounter.

It only makes sense that a Paladin would be the most optimal PC when facing off against an Archfiend.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

A level 12 party gets their asses kicked by Moloch. Most higher levels parties will get crushed too.

Also a Legendary CR 21 is expected on their own, to be an even match for a party level 17 characters. Not level 20s who will beat him if he is on his own.

 

[Erechel]

A level 12 party gets their asses kicked by Moloch. Most higher levels parties will get crushed too.

No. Only bull-headed parties will get crushed. 120 feet of movement don't really make the difference. My 5th-level fighter already can move faster, without any magic items: only a warhorse, and a lvl 1 spell (longstrider), 140 feet. I even use this to become a lightning bruiser (Lance + Horse= Profit! You don't need to disengage, attack and withdraw without even using your bonus action). Stinking cloud can be circumvented by just moving away, no matter how high the DC fo the save is. Not to mention things like gust of wind, dispel magic, or counterspell. It is a nice spell. It is tactical. But gets undone if concentration breaks, or if it is counterspelled, or dispel, or if there is a strong wind. Of course, if the wizard in the lvl 12 party only wants to "Bluhaha! I cast Fireball!" and the paladin does nothing but charge on foot and "attaaaack!!", any type of DM ingenuity will crush them. You can crush them with goblins. Believe me, I've made it. I killed a level 12 druid with volleys of goblins firing arrows... in one round.

But if the characters are at least half the smart that you are, and prepare accordingly to the fight (EG gathering holy water, which is unexpensive if you are planning to take down a fiend that raises undead), you are overwhelmed. Half your smart x4= twice your smart. A level 17 party of sufficiently smart players can thwart this monster easily. A level 12 party will have a difficult, but ultimately passable fight, in which luck will have much to say.

Also a Legendary CR 21 is expected on their own, to be an even match for a party level 17 characters. Not level 20s who will beat him if he is on his own.

A CR 21 monster needs to be an even match to a party, at least, level 20. ESPECIALLY if it is legendary. That's what the CR is for. One level (especially one level up to the MAXIMUM level of the party) should be more than an even fight. And a CR 21 certaintly don't need to be an easy fight for a 20th level party.

As a side note, instead of pumping up every skill, I would specialize the fight. The demon should really have a playstyle, a la 4th Ed, and build into that. If it is a caster/controller, make him a GREAT caster controller, not a mediocre one. And that isn't giving him essentialy infinite spell slots. They really don't matter in a 3-4 rounds fight. A spell isn't a fair trade for all its actions: he should have bonus actions, legendary actions and reactions. He is a freaking bosss, and should have a contingency plan for baseline characters. Teleporting as a reaction when he is going to be hit, for example, would be awesome. That would be a great teleporting battle, and a challenge for the characters.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

No. Only bull-headed parties will get crushed. 120 feet of movement don't really make the difference. My 5th-level fighter already can move faster, without any magic items: only a warhorse, and a lvl 1 spell (longstrider), 140 feet. I even use this to become a lightning bruiser (Lance + Horse= Profit! You don't need to disengage, attack and withdraw without even using your bonus action). Stinking cloud can be circumvented by just moving away, no matter how high the DC fo the save is. Not to mention things like gust of wind, dispel magic, or counterspell. It is a nice spell. It is tactical. But gets undone if concentration breaks, or if it is counterspelled, or dispel, or if there is a strong wind. Of course, if the wizard in the lvl 12 party only wants to "Bluhaha! I cast Fireball!" and the paladin does nothing but charge on foot and "attaaaack!!", any type of DM ingenuity will crush them. You can crush them with goblins. Believe me, I've made it. I killed a level 12 druid with volleys of goblins firing arrows... in one round.

But if the characters are at least half the smart that you are, and prepare accordingly to the fight (EG gathering holy water, which is unexpensive if you are planning to take down a fiend that raises undead), you are overwhelmed. Half your smart x4= twice your smart. A level 17 party of sufficiently smart players can thwart this monster easily. A level 12 party will have a difficult, but ultimately passable fight, in which luck will have much to say.



A CR 21 monster needs to be an even match to a party, at least, level 20. ESPECIALLY if it is legendary. That's what the CR is for. One level (especially one level up to the MAXIMUM level of the party) should be more than an even fight. And a CR 21 certaintly don't need to be an easy fight for a 20th level party.

As a side note, instead of pumping up every skill, I would specialize the fight. The demon should really have a playstyle, a la 4th Ed, and build into that. If it is a caster/controller, make him a GREAT caster controller, not a mediocre one. And that isn't giving him essentialy infinite spell slots. They really don't matter in a 3-4 rounds fight. A spell isn't a fair trade for all its actions: he should have bonus actions, legendary actions and reactions. He is a freaking bosss, and should have a contingency plan for baseline characters. Teleporting as a reaction when he is going to be hit, for example, would be awesome. That would be a great teleporting battle, and a challenge for the characters.

Would you like to be the opponent testing a party against Moloch then. Also according to encounter building. CR 21 equals 5 PCs of level 17. I am certain that if you controlled 5 level 12 PC's Moloch would win handily. And you would have some difficulty with him as a level 17.

Do you have a group of level 12 characters.