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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 338485" data-attributes="member: 3146">Well, let's see:Half Orc Ftr 4/Bbn 2/Tribal Protector 3Str 20 (effective 22) (or 22 (effective 24) if the original 18 did not include two stat increases), Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6Feats: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical: Greatsword.Items: +1 Flaming Greatsword, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Boots of Speed.Full Attacks: +17/+12 or +19/+14 raging or +17/+17/+12 wild fighting and raging or +19/+17/+17/+12 hasted (boots raging and wild fighting (goes up to +20/+18/+18/+13 if original 18 did not include stat increases for level)Raging Damage: 2d6+15+1d6 crit 17-20/x2 (2d6+18+1d6 against tribal enemies and 2d6+19+1d6 if stats did not include stat increases). Average: 25.5 damage per hit not including crits.Total average damage (Assuming all hits)=102Standard actions only: +19/+19 2d6+15+1d6Average damage: 51All of this, of course, assumes that the character isn't power attacking. But with +19 to hit on his primary and +12 to hit on his weakest attack, he probably is power attacking which will mean even more damage. The number of attacks also makes the (probably innaccurate) assumption that the Tribal Protector gains no additional attacks through cleave or great cleave). Even so, the Tribal Protector clearly does significantly more damage/round than the archer.An alternate Scenario:Ftr 5/Master Samurai 4Str 18 (effective 20), dex 12, con 16, int 14, wis 10, cha 8Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword, Improved Critical: bastard sword, Great Cleave, Blades of Fury, Supreme Cleave, Supreme Mobility, Blades of DeathEquipment: Boots of Speed, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, +1 Shock Bastard Sword (katana)Atk +16/+16/+11 (1d10+13+1d6 katana)or+18/+18/+13 (1d10+15+1d6) if he waits until after he is attacked to use Blades of FuryFull AttacksAvg damage/hit: 22 Avg damage/rnd: 66Avg Blades of Fury Damage/Hit: 24 Avg Blades of Fury Damage/Rnd 722 partial actions:Avg Damage/Rnd 44Avg Blades of Fury Dmg/Rnd 48The Master Samurai does less damage/round on full attacks than your OOBI unless he uses Blades of Fury. However, he does significantly more damage per round when limited to two partial actions. It is significant to note however, that the Master Samurai will frequently increase this damage by power attacking--especially since Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave allow the Master Samurai to gain a lot of extra attacks per round (even after having moved).No Prestige Classes:Ftr 4/Rgr 1/Bbn 4Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10Feats: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Blindfight, Close Quarters Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Iron Will, Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon FightingEquipment: +1 Flaming Greatsword, Boots of Speed, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Masterwork Armor Spikes, Masterwork Chain Shirt.Rage and HasteAtk: +18+18/+15 (2d6+13+1d6 greatsword) or (2WF) +18/+16/+11 (2d6+13+1d6 greatsword) and +16/+11 (1d6+3 armor spikes)Full round action:Avg Dmg/Greatsword hit: 23.5, avg dmg/armor spikes 6.5Total Avg Damage (assuming all hit) 83.5Partial Actions:2 Greatsword hits: 47 points of damage.The Greatsword and armor spikes fighter/ranger/barbarian deals slightly more damage on a full attack and significantly more damage on partial actions. In reality, since he can power attack and gain extra attacks from cleave, he will probably deal significantly more damage than this indicates.And for the last one:Cleric 9Str 16 Dex 10 Con14 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 12Deity: Torm (FR Guidebook) Domains: War and GoodFeats: Weapon Prof: greatsword, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Power Attack, Cleave.Equipment: +1 Screaming Greatsword, Boots of SpeedSpells: Empowered Bull's Strength (assume 4 points of strength), Persistent Divine Favor, Greater Magic WeaponAtk: +17/+17/+12 (2d6+12+1d6)Avg dmg/Greatsword hit: 22.5Avg dmg/Full attack (assuming all hit): 67.5Avg dmg/2 partial attacks: 45Again, this assumes no extra damage from power attacking and no extra attacks from cleave, the cleric ends up inflicting almost as much damage on full attacks and significantly more damage on partial attacks. Not too shabby for someone who can cast Flame Strike, Magic Vestment and Healing Circle.End Result: Min-maxed archers compete relatively well with all but the most min-maxed melee characters in terms of damage output. They are however, prone to run out of arrows and significantly more vulnerable to sunder attempts. Their +4 limit of strength bonus is also limiting. Power Critical doesn't work for them. They are also far more vision dependant than melee characters (a simple obscuring mist or fog cloud will really ruin an archer's day--even if he's 20th level). At least melee characters have the blindfighting feat available to them. All told, I think archers are very effective in 3e but by no means broken.BTW: where does the "Manyshot" on your archer's feat list come from? Is that an epic feat? If so, what's it doing on a 9th level character's stat block? (While we're commenting on this, it's worth noting that you somewhat bias the comparison by including boots of speed in the comparison since two handed melee weapons typically do more damage than bows so the extra attack granted by haste is more effective for melee fighters than for archers).</blockquote>

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