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Archery is better than swordsmanship?

perivas

First Post
After looking at what's available to archers and what's available to melee combatants, it seems to me that archery is definitely better. Take the following case for a simple archer at 9th level, using only WOTC books, with around 20,000gp and ability scores of 18/16/14/12/10/8.

Human Rogue 1/Fighter 4/Order of the Bow Initiate 2/Deepwood Sniper 2

Str 18/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 14/Wis 12/Cha 8

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (composite longbow), Weapon Specialization (composite longbow), Many Shot, Improved Critical (composite longbow)

Items: Bracers of Archery, Frost mighty composite longbow (+4 strength) +1, Boots of speed

Approximately damage per round (within 30ft):
Full round action: +16/+16/+16/+11 for 1d8+1d6(cold)+10 + 3d6 sneak attack damage each, critical range 18-20/x4
Standard action: +18/+13? for 1d8+1d6(cold) + 10/6 damage

That's around 72 points / round (not critting and no sneak attack on full round action) and 32 points / round (not critting and no sneak attack on standard action).

Can a character using melee weapons ever match this kind of damage? Can someone please try to come up with a damage machine from melee to match (without resorting to mid-combat power-ups (e.g., spells which last x rounds/level), which end up wasting rounds to buy more damage later). Is archery broken in the d20 system?
 
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Crothian

First Post
No, first off all archers have less useful feats in the core rules. Second, they need magical bows and arrows. Third, they run out of ammunition. Fourth, they fire in melee they provoke AoO. And those are the few answers that'll post now. There are others. Sure, archery is strong. But so is melee fighting.
 

Zhure

First Post
Substitute a level of Ranger for the TWF feats and use some guantlets of Ogre Power in place of the bracers and it's pretty close.

Greg
 

perivas

First Post
I'll address some of the earlier comments now:

1. Less useful feats? That is completely a matter of opinion. All those feats you speak of are very situation specific.
2. Need magical bows & arrows? Only as much as a melee fighter against damage reduction.
3. Run out of ammunition? I concede that it is a possibility.
4. Provide AoO? The character I just created does not due to the abilities of his PrC.

As for two-weapon fighting...you get only +4 damage on your primary hand and +2 for your off hand, as opposed to the +4/+4 for both shots using rapid shot. Secondly, there's nothing to counter to +1 attack/+1 damage bonus from point blank shot and nothing like the bracers of archery either. So, even with the gauntlets, two attacks for the melee fighter nets you +7/+4 damage from strength and specialization, while the archer can net +8/+8 damage from both shots. Note that the d10 from a bastard sword for damage will be cancelled out by the d6 from the offhand short sword, when compared to the d8 longbow. And I still haven't mentioned the easier to get critical damage modifications from PrCs available only to the archer or the greater likelihood of using your full round action to attack when you can attack from range.

I'm still hoping that someone can prove me wrong with numbers.
 
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hong

WotC's bitch
I can't find it now, but there was a post on the General forum about the relative power levels of different character types. I think it went something like this:

1st-4th: Melee guys rule. The spellcasters don't have all the best spells yet, and the archers haven't got all the magical goodies to bump up their damage potential.

5th: Wizards rule. Fireball. :)

6th-10th: Archers rule. GMW comes into its own here, along with stacked enhancement bonuses, bracers of archery, mighty bows, etc.

11th-15th: Everyone is roughly balanced. The tanks are now dishing out enough damage to draw level with the archers.

16th+: Spellcasters. Yes, in 3E high-level spellcasters are still gods. Not as much as in previous editions, but it's still there.
 

Alariel

First Post
1/5/3 Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berzerker:

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), any relevant feat, Improved Critical (Greatsword)

Items: Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Greatsword +3

Approximate damage per round (while Raging/Frenzied = Str 30):
Full round action: +22/+22/+17 for 2d6+20

The full round action goes to 66-96 damage, assuming no critical hits, and each attack lands.

The standard action would go 22-32, assuming no critical hits.

This is based on raging and going into a frenzy are considered free actions, and do not necessarily take away from combat time, so one does not lose rounds of combat for later damage.

Even further, let us assume this meleer opts to reduce his attack bonus to match that of the archer using his Power Attack of -6/+6:

Full round action: +16/+16/+11 for 2d6+26

The full round action goes to 84-114, assuming no critical hits, and each attack lands.

The standard action would go 28-38, assuming no critical hits.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Well, let's see:

Half Orc Ftr 4/Bbn 2/Tribal Protector 3
Str 20 (effective 22) (or 22 (effective 24) if the original 18 did not include two stat increases), Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical: Greatsword.

Items: +1 Flaming Greatsword, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Boots of Speed.

Full Attacks: +17/+12 or +19/+14 raging or +17/+17/+12 wild fighting and raging or +19/+17/+17/+12 hasted (boots raging and wild fighting (goes up to +20/+18/+18/+13 if original 18 did not include stat increases for level)
Raging Damage: 2d6+15+1d6 crit 17-20/x2 (2d6+18+1d6 against tribal enemies and 2d6+19+1d6 if stats did not include stat increases). Average: 25.5 damage per hit not including crits.
Total average damage (Assuming all hits)=102

Standard actions only: +19/+19 2d6+15+1d6
Average damage: 51

All of this, of course, assumes that the character isn't power attacking. But with +19 to hit on his primary and +12 to hit on his weakest attack, he probably is power attacking which will mean even more damage. The number of attacks also makes the (probably innaccurate) assumption that the Tribal Protector gains no additional attacks through cleave or great cleave). Even so, the Tribal Protector clearly does significantly more damage/round than the archer.

An alternate Scenario:
Ftr 5/Master Samurai 4
Str 18 (effective 20), dex 12, con 16, int 14, wis 10, cha 8

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword, Improved Critical: bastard sword, Great Cleave, Blades of Fury, Supreme Cleave, Supreme Mobility, Blades of Death

Equipment: Boots of Speed, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, +1 Shock Bastard Sword (katana)

Atk +16/+16/+11 (1d10+13+1d6 katana)
or
+18/+18/+13 (1d10+15+1d6) if he waits until after he is attacked to use Blades of Fury

Full Attacks
Avg damage/hit: 22 Avg damage/rnd: 66
Avg Blades of Fury Damage/Hit: 24 Avg Blades of Fury Damage/Rnd 72

2 partial actions:
Avg Damage/Rnd 44
Avg Blades of Fury Dmg/Rnd 48

The Master Samurai does less damage/round on full attacks than your OOBI unless he uses Blades of Fury. However, he does significantly more damage per round when limited to two partial actions. It is significant to note however, that the Master Samurai will frequently increase this damage by power attacking--especially since Great Cleave and Supreme Cleave allow the Master Samurai to gain a lot of extra attacks per round (even after having moved).

No Prestige Classes:
Ftr 4/Rgr 1/Bbn 4
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10

Feats: Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Blindfight, Close Quarters Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Iron Will, Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Equipment: +1 Flaming Greatsword, Boots of Speed, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Masterwork Armor Spikes, Masterwork Chain Shirt.

Rage and Haste
Atk: +18+18/+15 (2d6+13+1d6 greatsword) or (2WF) +18/+16/+11 (2d6+13+1d6 greatsword) and +16/+11 (1d6+3 armor spikes)

Full round action:
Avg Dmg/Greatsword hit: 23.5, avg dmg/armor spikes 6.5
Total Avg Damage (assuming all hit) 83.5

Partial Actions:
2 Greatsword hits: 47 points of damage.

The Greatsword and armor spikes fighter/ranger/barbarian deals slightly more damage on a full attack and significantly more damage on partial actions. In reality, since he can power attack and gain extra attacks from cleave, he will probably deal significantly more damage than this indicates.

And for the last one:
Cleric 9
Str 16 Dex 10 Con14 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 12

Deity: Torm (FR Guidebook) Domains: War and Good
Feats: Weapon Prof: greatsword, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Power Attack, Cleave.

Equipment: +1 Screaming Greatsword, Boots of Speed
Spells: Empowered Bull's Strength (assume 4 points of strength), Persistent Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon

Atk: +17/+17/+12 (2d6+12+1d6)

Avg dmg/Greatsword hit: 22.5
Avg dmg/Full attack (assuming all hit): 67.5
Avg dmg/2 partial attacks: 45

Again, this assumes no extra damage from power attacking and no extra attacks from cleave, the cleric ends up inflicting almost as much damage on full attacks and significantly more damage on partial attacks. Not too shabby for someone who can cast Flame Strike, Magic Vestment and Healing Circle.

End Result: Min-maxed archers compete relatively well with all but the most min-maxed melee characters in terms of damage output. They are however, prone to run out of arrows and significantly more vulnerable to sunder attempts. Their +4 limit of strength bonus is also limiting. Power Critical doesn't work for them. They are also far more vision dependant than melee characters (a simple obscuring mist or fog cloud will really ruin an archer's day--even if he's 20th level). At least melee characters have the blindfighting feat available to them. All told, I think archers are very effective in 3e but by no means broken.

BTW: where does the "Manyshot" on your archer's feat list come from? Is that an epic feat? If so, what's it doing on a 9th level character's stat block? (While we're commenting on this, it's worth noting that you somewhat bias the comparison by including boots of speed in the comparison since two handed melee weapons typically do more damage than bows so the extra attack granted by haste is more effective for melee fighters than for archers).
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
hong said:


5th: Wizards rule. Fireball. :)


I beg your pardon? The ability to do 5d6 damage, half on a save, once... compared to the power that everyone else has in D&D and the huge boost in hit points for nearly everything, I would have to disagree here!

(perhaps if you said 5th: Wizards with Fireball and Craft Wand and the time needed to create a Wand of Fireballs, and I will concede the point, however!)
 

BMF

First Post
I and another member of our group went through an "archers are awesome!" phase a few months ago.

Eventually though, we learned that archers are can be neutralized by several things including protection from arrows, immunity to piercing weapons, melee combat, and so on. Not to mention DR and stoneskin etc.

Poisoned arrows help toughen them up though..

Now, however, I'm convinced that the toughest characters are wizards or multi-class wizards.
 
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Thanee

First Post
Yep, Fireballs do not really rule at 5th level, where the fighters will easily do as much damage per round, unless there are many opponents crowded (perfect fireball scenario), of course!

However, a 5th level Wizard will easily beat both of the Barbarians above (and a 9th level Wizard even more so).

Anyways, Barbarians and other fighter-types are extremely nasty in melee combat in the low to mid level range.

Later on, archers and spellcasters get better, just because of the higher flexibility with their great range!

Bye
Thanee
 

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