Archery is better than swordsmanship?

[hong]

I beg your pardon? The ability to do 5d6 damage, half on a save, once... compared to the power that everyone else has in D&D and the huge boost in hit points for nearly everything, I would have to disagree here!

Hey, I'm not the one who came up with the above summary, I'm just repeating it. And "fireball" was exactly what was said the first time.

I think there are a few reasons why fireball figures so prominently:

- It's guaranteed damage except against fire-immune and incorporeal things. There's a save, but most monsters don't have very good Reflex saves. You also don't need an attack roll.

- It's long range (600 ft minimum) which way outdistances what most archers can hit at that level.

- It bypasses DR, which is the bane of most melee types.

- It kills most regenerating and undead thingies.

- It's the best way at that level of taking down multiple targets. No-one has multiple iterative attacks, and even the dual-wielding or Rapid Shot types don't usually have good attack bonuses.

- It appeals to everyone's inner pyromaniac.

 

[Zad]

Archery, properly used, is powerful yes.

Melee, properly used is powerful also. You seem to neglect that side of things. You also seem to ignore the problems the archer has, including needing to blow a feat just to counter a penalty that melee doesn't have (precise shot), not threatening an area, ammo depletion, magic ammo needs, and a host of other issues.

(So how's that archer gonna deal with DR creatures?)

There is pretty reasonable balance.

Oh and by the way, if the DM let's you mix and match prestige classes like that, then the problem lies there. It's my opinion that cherry picking prestige classes for utility with no regard to the continuity is just munchkinism. And of course you'll be out of luck when 20th level rolls around.

 

[Rackhir]

originally posted by perivas

Can a character using melee weapons ever match this kind of damage? Can someone please try to come up with a damage machine from melee to match (without resorting to mid-combat power-ups (e.g., spells which last x rounds/level), which end up wasting rounds to buy more damage later). Is archery broken in the d20 system?

I think you also underestimate the potential value of things like Cleave/Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack and the numerous feats that generate AoOs which are all useless and have no counter parts (outside of some epic level feats) for archers.

Originally posted by Zad

Oh and by the way, if the DM let's you mix and match prestige classes like that, then the problem lies there. It's my opinion that cherry picking prestige classes for utility with no regard to the continuity is just munchkinism. And of course you'll be out of luck when 20th level rolls around.

Well, you know we disagree on this point. Two prestige classes is hardly muchkinism, especially considering that you can finish out all 10 levels of one of the archery prestige classes before hitting 20th level. It is no more necessarily abusive to take complementary prestige classes, than it is to take feats like Cleave and Power Attack that dovetail to equally good effect.

It also hardly screws you for epic levels, considering there are epic level prestige classes for both OoBI and DWS, the OoBI having some particularly sweet abilities (oh how I would love to have that 30' threat range and combat reflexes).

 

[Zad]

Agreed on the epic, provided you finish one out to 10th level. Good point.

So, Rackhir, how many times do you think we'll have to post these melee vs. archery items?

 

[Rackhir]

Originally posted by Zad

So, Rackhir, how many times do you think we'll have to post these melee vs. archery items?

They have been coming particularly hot and heavy of late, haven't they. But they usually seem to pop up about once a month.

 

[BBrendolfus]

Bows have a damage cap, melee weapons don't. Enhanced arrows can off set this but are either expensive (permanent) or rely on the spell caster to boost (temporarily).

Many combat options like trip/disarm/sunder/bullrush are best executed in melee.

Also if your DM interprets unarmed and without the unarmed feat as not threatening (50/50) you are very vulnerable to harm.

The damage factor really kicks in as strength scores get boosted in the later levels.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yep, Fireballs do not really rule at 5th level, where the fighters will easily do as much damage per round, unless there are many opponents crowded (perfect fireball scenario), of course!

I think they do.

Yes, it is only once or twice per day, but average damage is typically in the ballpark of 14 points of damage (assuming DC 16 versus +2 reflex on average) per opponent in the effect. For most opponents encountered, that is anywhere from 60% to 100+% of their total hit points.

Fighters at the level average nowhere near 14 points of damage per round for a single opponent, let alone multiple ones. Even with 18 Str, Weapon Specialization, and a +2 sword, it would only be 12.5 average points of damage IF the Fighter hits. Even with two weapons, the average damage per round would still be less than 14 points.

So, for overall damage in a single round, this rules at that level. The Wizard can easily do a total of 40, 50, or even more points of damage to opponents with a single spell.

For overall average damage while adventuring though, the Fighter still rules.

It all depends on what you are looking at.

Wizards also get an extra Magic Missile for a total which averages 10.5 points of damage and an automatic hit.

So, the 5th level Wizard is a significant increase over 4th power-wise, probably enough to make Wizards at that level the most powerful single combat class, or close to it.

 

[Lord Ben]

They work best as a team in my opinion. One without the other has weak points. I've done enough nasty things to archers like grapple, sunder bows, disarm, etc where they have weak points.

 

[Morose]

Whoa... felt like I wandered into the Sultan's of Smack thread there for a second.

 

[Otterscrubber]

They work best as a team in my opinion. One without the other has weak points. I've done enough nasty things to archers like grapple, sunder bows, disarm, etc where they have weak points.

My personal favorite is ray of enfeeblement on archers with mighty composite longbows. Or dragon bile poison (DC 26 save or take 3D6 Str loss). It puts their character and their rusty swords to the test .