Are Bards Fascinating in the Dungeon?

[WhimsyTheFae]

And again, let's say we did agree that Fascinate is, by itself, considered a hostile action that would break a Fascination. When would Fascinate ever work?

I don't see anyone who agrees that this is the case, let alone you two. I think that irdeggman was saying that it was the start of combat, from a game mechanic standpoint, not a threatening/non-threatening standpoint.

I will often start a "combat" (i.e. roll initiative) where no threatening activities end up happening. It's just easier to do this when multiple players want to take actions and I feel that an initiative order would be useful.

I am also in the camp that this would be useful in a Dungeon, though its limitations would not make it easy.

 

[Pielorinho]

I played a bard as a backup character once when my main PC was dead. It was in a dungeon in which a hag (annis, maybe?) guarded a set of extradimensional prison cells that were entered by standing on a platform when a switch was thrown.

The rest of the party hung back while the bard, under Change Self, entered the room disguised as a troll or something. He immediately began telling her the story of Little Red Riding Hood, only in this version, the wolf- and little-girl-eating grandmother was the protagonist (roll for fascinate; the hag fails). Before too long, he was having her act out the various rolls in the modified fairy tale, involving violent consumption of her houseguests. At one point, he suggested that she stand on the platform with her eyes closed (roll for suggestion; the hag fails); she complied, and the bard quickly threw the switch that teleported her into a cell with a troll.

Funny thing: a hag's abilities, nasty as they are, can't overcome a troll's regeneration. We all listened at our leisure to the screams and tearings and munching sounds from that cell, before we summoned the troll out and subjected it to Charm Monster .

Daniel

 

[irdeggman]

I don't see anyone who agrees that this is the case, let alone you two. I think that irdeggman was saying that it was the start of combat, from a game mechanic standpoint, not a threatening/non-threatening standpoint.

I will often start a "combat" (i.e. roll initiative) where no threatening activities end up happening. It's just easier to do this when multiple players want to take actions and I feel that an initiative order would be useful.

I am also in the camp that this would be useful in a Dungeon, though its limitations would not make it easy.

Right. Basically I don't think that they meant "combat round" when they (WotC) said nearby combat.

When "combat" was so defined above as something else (anytime you roll initiative) it causes issues.

I think that WotC meant what we normally think of as combat - swords slamming, yelling, kicking, punching - you know general mayhem.

Not necessarily the combat round - which is defined around initiative rolls.

So you can be in a combat round and not be in combat. If that makes any sense.

The key words in the text for fascinate is to me is "distraction of . . .". Which fits in with other concepts, like taking 10 for instance. It is not just in initiative, but in a distracting circumstance - like when someone is fighting around you.

 

[irdeggman]

Spell like abilities, or supernatural abilities like the bard's Fascinate and Suggestion, do not have the verbal or somatic components of a Suggestion spell. An opponent would not detect what is happening, and thus would not have the opportunity to decide if what's happening is hostile act or not.

It is very different. You can ready an action to counterspell, or attack someone who is casting a spell. You cannot do the same for a spell-like ability, as there are no spell components. You have no idea if they are trying to fascinate you or not, but everyone knows, at least by raw, when verbal and somatic spell components come into play.

Using a spell-like ability when threatened generates an AoO, while a using a supernatural ability does not.

I would say that because of the AoO there is an indication that something is going on and the opponent has a chance to so "react".

 

[takasi]

Using a spell-like ability when threatened generates an AoO, while a using a supernatural ability does not.

I would say that because of the AoO there is an indication that something is going on and the opponent has a chance to so "react".

Well then again, if you're claiming the act itself is a hostile action that breaks itself, then when would the opportunity ever arrive?

 

[frankthedm]

It is very very hard to pull it off in combat. The way it seems to me.

1. The Bard has to beat every foe on initiative.
2. All the bard allies who beat him in initiative have to take non hostile actions.
3. The bard has to fascinate every foe. If even one can launch an attack and does so, fascinate ends.

 

[Driddle]

... people think the bard sucks ass without Fascinate.

Can we use the term, "sucks ass," on this board? Seems sort of crass. Maybe we can soften it to something like "siphons buttucks?"

 

[Pielorinho]

Bards get good disguise skills and spells. If a bard knows that an opponent is in a particular location, she should be able to enter the location in disguise and start the fascinate without triggering combat.

And I absolutely don't think that the AoO should clue someone in that it's combat. Plenty of things trigger an AoO (standing up from prone, as someone would do if they were pretending to be your best friend waking up from a nap) that would not signify that combat was in play. More importantly, that's a rules side-effect that eliminates some really fun tactics; more importantly still, it'd mean that someone with a negative spot check and sense motive check standing next to a bard would perceive something that someone with huge spot/sense motive checks standing 10' from the bard would have zero chance of noticing.

Better to interpret that rule otherwise, IMO .

Daniel

 

[Slife]

What's the use of fascinate?

Give someone a -9 to their spot check to notice the rogue picking their pocket.

 

[kenobi65]

And personally I think, at least in our group, that people think the bard sucks ass without Fascinate, and that with it they think he's "broken".

I'd disagree with this.

If you allow the Spell Compendium (or, I think, Complete Adventurer) in your campaign, your bard should absolutely have inspirational boost. By casting inspirational boost (a swift spell) right before he starts singing inspire courage, he's giving everyone in the party +2 to attack and damage rolls (+3 once he hits 8th level).

IMO, if you're going to enjoy playing a bard, you need to be able to enjoy being someone who makes everybody else better, because that's where a bard really shines. If you're a player who prefers being the one who strikes the killing blow, then you probably shouldn't be playing a bard.

As you note, one of the limitations of Fascinate is that you can't get a ton of creatures with it. At 6th level, he can get no more than 2 creatures...what happens when you run into a group of 4 bad guys? Sure, you can fascinate 2 of them, but their two buddies may not sit still for that. And, when *they* draw their weapons and go after Mr. Bard, that'll break the Fascinate.

Personally, as a DM, if the party encountered creatures who weren't going to immediately attack the PCs on sight, I would probably let the bard try to fascinate them without worrying about initiative (unless the rest of the party did something dumb first). If you're encountering hostiles, it'll come down to that initiative roll.