Are Casters 'still' way better than noncasters after level 6?

[Banshee16]

Waitaminute... Banshee, are you saying that in your games of DUNGEONS and Dragons, the PCs don't spend time in dungeons?

Think about that for a moment.

It's possible that you are deviating a fair bit from the standard playstyle.

Which would explain a lot.

I'm curious -- precisely what was it about Vow of Poverty that you found so problematic?

- Ron ^*^

If you're talking about your stereotypical hole in the ground, filled with rooms, traps, and monsters sitting in those rooms waiting to kill adventurers who came upon them, then, no, we didn't play many dungeons.

I'm not saying *none*. I'm saying not many.

We had games taking place in cities, with urban encounters in alleyways, thieves guilds, council chambers. Negotations with archmagi, generals of armies, and powerful nobles. FedEx quests traveling between cities and plains. Lots of encounters in the wilderness, crumbling sewers of ancient cities, castles, sometimes ancient ruins etc.

It was varied. But dungeons can be more than just holes in the ground.

I honestly don't know many games that just took place in dungeons. I mean, seems like kind of a limited play style. My games have never been like that, and gaves I've participated in as a player weren't really like that either.

Please keep in mind, that character was three years ago, so my memory may be spotty. But, as DM, it was kind of everything. The Vow of Poverty is built in a way that it's intended to make up for the fact that a character doesn't have use of all the myriad magic items characters of his level would have. But it seemed to give everything....almost like the magic items they were balanced against were a perfectly selected selection of items outfitting another character....as if they maximized exactly which items the character had, instead of the random, haphazard selection of items that most characters would get, by virtue of random treasure placement, and the fact that no single character in a party got to pick everything. Instead, they'd pick lots, so the items would get spread around, instead of that perfect selection being all handed to one person.

With the Vow of Poverty however, any character who doesn't really need equipment (ie. Monk, Sorcerer, maybe Wizard) could gain:

AC bonus of +15 (counting armor, deflection, natural)
+20 to ability scores (adding everything up....basically same as a character having +5 items for four of his abilities
Regeneration
Resistance bonus +3 to all saves
Energy resistance 15
10 bonus feats
doesn't need to eat or breath
True Seeing

Those are huge bonuses.....and many of them are available via one item or another. But what's the likelihood a single character would have enough items to get all those abilities?

Magic items get burned out, stolen, broken in battle, traded away.....IMO it's rare that a character would have the perfect selection of items....unless it was a new game, you were starting the characters at a high level, and as a result they got to pick the level's worth of magic items.

Banshee

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Firstly, before I go further, thank you very much for the extended response and the effort it would have taken: XP for you sir.

I'd be happy to try and help....but I think the point that the players in my group usually haven't been optimizers means they're likely not the guys you're looking for advice from

My players are not optimizers either. However they are conversant with and highly practiced with high level play, rules and tactics.

I've explained some of the things I've done, and they're spread out through the thread.

Here are some others:

1-Work your game so the 15 minute workday isn't an issue. Use timelines. Conflicting NPCs with goals that differ from those of the PCs. Make there be real consequences for not attending to quest issues in a timely fashion. Maybe there's an organization that is working against the PC's goals, and they want the same McGuffin the PCs want. When the PCs take out the gatehouse encounter, and then leave in order to rest and rememorize and go after the big baddy, their arch enemies from the other organization come in, now that the PCs have so nicely cleared out that gatehouse encounter, and do something to disable or kill the big baddy and steal the McGuffin.

If somebody wants the McGuffin a valid tactic is let them go to the effort of getting it and then immediately taking it from them. I have found forcing time pressure on a high level group very hit and miss. As I tried to indicate to you before, letting the "time limit" expire becomes a valid tactic because just about any happening can be reversed or fixed well after the event. Unfortunately if you embrace and don't restrict the rules, high level parties can pick and choose with this "method". Or they can succeed with but a blip's difference to their resources.

2-Have enemies work smart. If the wizard is the tactical nuke of the party, what defenses would the NPCs use against them? Antimagic shell on a fighter/wizard works really well. But mainly, recognizing that the wizard can be dangerous, and has to be a priority.

This tactic does not work unless you can force the wizard within the landbound proximity of the "Antimagic-dude". This can work in dungeons but then your party can more easily protect the antimagic's enemy. The only way how this realistically works is to antimagic a natural flyer (but then the antimagic'd dude is a sitting duck for the rest of the party). As for focusing on the wizard, this ends up being counter-productive as the majority of attacks in the first two rounds will not work by which time the rest of the party and the wizard has taken out the primary threat in that time. Over-targetting the wizard or programming their death works. I do not see this as a fair tactic however every game session.

3-Sometimes (at least at lower levels) simple measures like using caltrops, or marbles can work wonders. A rogue in our party was renowned for carrying bags of marbles, and scattering them all over the floor under the feet of her enemies, forcing saves to avoid falling flat on the ground. DR doesn't protect against it, nor does mirror image if it's an area attack....nor does mind blank or spell resistance, etc. A simple fly spell would work, or levitate..if the wizard had them.

As you say, surprisingly effective (along with grease) at low levels... but we're talking high level here: 15th plus.

4-Use spellcasters against your spellcaster. They'll have tactics to deal with him.

Powerful spellcasters are not dumb. If they think they are a reasonable chance of losing out, they will not risk being forced back to their Simulacrum. With this, party or the enemy will ambush the other if they feel the need to act. Because of the disparity in power level you will destroy the party in the process of highly challenging the wizard.

If you just have a "random" wizard taking on the party wizard with supposed ideal tactics, then you can challenge him. Story-wise though, this is a little unrealistic unless you carefully engineer it. It is not a tactic you can throw at a wizard more than once without becoming trite. It just does not make sense (in my gameworld at least anyway).

5-Dimensional Anchor could often be another good one. It allows a save, sure, but sometimes it could keep that wizard from getting away.

It does not offer a save, offers spell resistance or will be turned back on the caster - this is not how to use a dimensional anchor. Bad guy casts it on an invisible hit point sack minion and the sack chases after the caster similar to the antimagic tactic. This is not a difficult tactic for a high level party to deal with. It is only a minor challenge.

6-Mind Fog, followed by Confusion was often a good combo......depending on whether Mind Blank was already active or not.

Mind Blank lasts for 24 hours. It becomes part of the wizard's early morning routine. Confusion attacks a wizards best save which a high level wiz would generally not have to make. It's a highly effective tactic against the rest of the party though (until the wizard gets to a high enough level to just mind blank the party).

Also.....any spell or effect that could occupy the other party members who don't have all these magical protections (like Mind Fog + Confusion) or Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, or a host of other mid level spells could limit the wizard's companions' ability to protect him. While they're busy trying to get untangled or whatever, the butchers move in to take down the mage.

Occupying the rest of the party works be it with spells or creatures of significance. Then the wizard resorts to summoning/gating if necessary. To then battle this effectively, you have to up the ante further with more powerful enemies which will usually result in a challenged wizard and several dead party members. This becomes the classic issue I have continually mentioned thus far: challenge the wizard, kill the rest of the party. In the main, I prefer to challenge the rest of the party and just accept that the wizard can pick and choose his influence on the encounter.

Beyond that, the biggest thing is just not to give the wizard time and space to work. Even when protected by potent defenses like Moment of Prescience and Stoneskin, just how much protection they can offer can be limited.

Quickened mirror image will ruin your day versus most enemies you try to inflict on the wizard. It forces enemy casters with their big targetted effects to not take the chance, forcing them to work on reducing the illusion count. [Only creatures with lifesense, true seeing or immunity to illusions can bust this and there is not many with these abilities: Dread Wraith from memory and not too much else with true seeing unless you engineer it].
Extend spell combined with high level means that most effects last until dispelled. Back up scrolls means that a wizard is only a time stop away from refuelling. Again, you can crack through this raft of defenses but only if you program it, but by the time you've done this the rest of the party have had their way with an enemy that is overfocusing.

The wizard is 1d4 hp/lvl. Thus, counting max hp at lvl 1, the average wizard will have 52 hp at lvl 20....plus whatever he gets from high CON or whatever. If he's put most of his points in INT, or, say, 3 in INT and 2 in CON, maybe he's got...what...13 or 14 CON? If he's using an ability buffer spell, he might have +4 to his CON..thus 17 or 18. So, now we're talking, buffed, 112 to 132 hp. Throw False Life on top of that... Moment of Prescience might protect against the one attack. But after that, Stoneskin is relatively limited in utility. DR 10/adamantine. Great. But at level 20, you've got fighters who might have.......+4 Flaming Burst Longsword, with 30 STR (due to level enhancements, buffs, specialization, maybe a girdle), who can cause 1d8+10+4+2+1d6 dmg (and this description is not even really optimized in the first place....but my dog is crying to be let out of the kennel, so I can't spend an hour researching a more indepth post). I don't have my books in front of me, so I know it's possible to do even more than that......the longsword isn't even the most damage optimized weapon. Because the Wiz' AC is relatively low in comparison to that of other characters, the fighters could conceivably hit with multiple attacks. Low level mooks with bows can pound multiple missile attacks at the wizard to wear down things like mirror images and stoneskin spells. A rogue spamming the trip attack and flanking the wizard can make casting spells very difficult.

These things do not work. Wizards have enough hit points to survive area of effect spells, their only real weakness unless they have energy protections in which case the efforts are wasted. As for the big longsword dude, come to daddy and let me dominate you and turn you against the harmless bowers (protection from arrows being a stock defensive spell). Same for the rogue (wizards fly almost constantly by the way at high level through the use of one effect, spell or another). The tactics you mention here do not work against a high level wizard. If they did, I wouldn't be whinging my off so to speak.

If you use optional books, the wizards' options get better...but so do the options available to everyone else....then you get the mage killer feats etc. that restrict his ability to cast defensively etc.

Pathfinder fixed the casting defensively thing by forcing a caster level check rather than a concentration check. However, the wizard has their defences up already so in terms of defense this is moot (it only really effects attacks). As well, quickened effects do not generate attacks of opportunity. This assumes that any wizard worth their salt will have this feat by high level. YMMV.

I used to get frustrated at how easily characters of other classes could destroy wizard NPCs I threw against them. It comes down to things like if the wizard has his buffs up at the start of the encounter, if he has initiative, or if he's always acting later in a round, if he has ways of slowing down the ability of other characters to get in close to him etc.

That sounds more like a mid-level wizard who got ambushed. A high level wizard has the buffs in place already (they get reset every time he learns his spells for the day). You make a good point though that an isolated NPC wizard is a completely different proposition to a party wizard with several powerful allies with them. The disparity is because generally at mid level, you have a powerful wizard but they are not surrounded by several characters of classes of an equal level. Mooks are worth almost nothing to a wizard against a PC party.

At the end of the day, what I saw happen with wizards was symptomatic of what I've observed with high level play, period. Initiative matters. Those who got the jump, and got the first good hits in often carried the encounter, as attacks became powerful enough that if you had the third action in a round, you could be down to 50% of your hp in the first round after a few bad rolls...and then your whole strategy changes. Whether it was fighters, rogues, druids, wizards, or something else, I've seen all of these classes dominate games at various times. Sometimes it depends on the luck of the dice, timing, initiative, and the whole paper/scissors/rock aspect as to what you do vs. what the opponent chooses to do in a particular round.

This plays precisely into my point of the unkillable wizard. The first handful of attacks at them are irrelevant and wasted (and need to be wasted if you want to have a decent crack at taking down the wizard). You end up challenging the party but not the wizard OR you end up challenging the wizard but killing the party. The fine line in between is too narrow such is the power of the wizards defenses, to the point of making initiative against them virtually irrelevant.

There was another spell in an optional source, based upon one I saw in 2nd Ed. in a book about schools of magic....it was basically a scrying defense spell...if someone scries you, or tries to look at you with a magical sensor, they get hit with a nasty attack that goes back through the scrying link and fry the caster. Sort of like what Murmandamus did in A Darkness at Sethanon.

Huge kudos for the Feist reference by the way

I'm pretty sure somebody ported that spell over to 3E, but I can't remember which book it was in. I never did use it, but it could be something to help. And if it makes the wizard think twice about scrying, and rely on the rogue's sneaking talents instead, well, you're creating more reason for the party to work together, instead of it being the wizard's show, with everyone else being his support.

Its not the scrying that is necessarily the killer and it's not the rogue who stars but the cleric. This aspect of the game can be quite fun but the result is still the same - greater teleport will still work regardless of whether you have specifically scried there or not. As a once of though, sounds fun.

I'm not denying the wizard is powerful. I'm just saying that a good player can make *any* character powerful. Well, almost any character That kender bard (Planescape) was not the most effective....but it was a roleplaying player who ran him, rather than rollplaying....so it didn't matter.

Different games. What worked for me very well might not work for you. I could try running in your game, and find myself just as stumped by your players as you've been.

I have gauged from your numerous responses that you have a lot of mid-level experience but have not had repeated exposure to high level (15th plus) play on both sides of the screen. I am only adamant about what I'm saying because I have seen the same pattern repeatedly. What you have presented though is an excellent primer of tactics and for this again, I thank you for your time and effort. In regards to the original post, these are all tactics that are going to greater balance a mid-level party (the sweetspot that most groups play) when combined with the pathfinder rules (rather than 3.x). Please excuse my bluntness when I say that their effectiveness is blunted against a high level wizard. At least the ones I have played and have had to DM against.

I'm not going to say that my way is better....just that it seems my game went differently than yours, and these problems didn't arise.....but it could be as simple a thing as that my players didn't care to optimize. Maybe we're more casual. Since I'm not an optimizer, I'm likely not even the right one to ask. But I'm sure if you ask on the CharOp boards, you'll find people can give you all kinds of ideas.

My impression of the CharOp boards are that by mixing various levels of psionics with the core classes, you can get some whacky/cheesy levels of power. I have never embraced psionics myself so I don't know how true this is and what effect they would have on my game. I'm interested though in what gamerprinter was going to post. Perhaps my groups melee types are missing the boat?

One note....you used the example of Spell Resistance being a good defensive spell...but it's a cleric spell. In my game, the characters didn't put all their efforts into just buffing the mage. Usually the cleric used that one on himself, or on the fighter, to give the fighter some protection so he wouldn't be neutralized by the first Dominate Person used against him (for instance). But for that matter, if any character in the party was the focus of all of the buffing efforts of the spellcasters, he would be difficult to deal with.

Spell resistance gets given to everyone before an ambush. It is a common enough occurrence that I mention it. Alternatively, the mage can trick this out in an emergency by getting the cleric to place it into a particular ring or something for latter use (the exact equipment that does this escapes me at the moment).

Again, thank you very much for the extended response.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Banshee16]

More casual is right. THESE are your tactics for dealing with high-level casters? The fact that you included "marbles" is fantastic. "An 18th level wizard? I've got this one, guys -- I whip out a bag of marbles and throw them all over the floor!"

No offense, but my players would eat you alive.

- Ron ^*^

No offense, but you *did* read what I wrote didn't you?

"3-Sometimes (at least at lower levels) simple measures like using caltrops, or marbles can work wonders. A rogue in our party was renowned for carrying bags of marbles, and scattering them all over the floor under the feet of her enemies, forcing saves to avoid falling flat on the ground. DR doesn't protect against it, nor does mirror image if it's an area attack....nor does mind blank or spell resistance, etc. A simple fly spell would work, or levitate..if the wizard had them."

As I pointed out "Sometimes (at least at lower levels)".....

Did you miss that part? I never said the rogue was throwing bloody marbles at archmagi.

Geez.

There's not a lot of sense in even discussing this much further, as many ideas have been discussed for high level encounters, and anything that doesn't fit your specific interpretation of how the game is supposed to work would get thrown out.

People have suggested Forbiddance being used to prevent Teleportation into an area. That's countered by saying essentially "well, how likely is everyone going to be to have it? If you overuse a tactic like that, players will get bored". It's a fantasy game. In the game, the people live in a reality where magic works. Wizards teleport around, bypass walls and standard protections, can see what you try to hide, etc. Of *course* enemies are going to do stuff like use permanent Forbiddance spells....because they *work*.

Anti-Magic Field is another great spell that any wizard over lvl 12 has access to. Given that it would invalidate that wizard's own abilities, he'd be cautious about using it....but if he was multiclassed, then yeah, it makes perfect sense. Again, because it works. Is it spamming? Sure. But it's also a smart defense if you're a multiclass spellcaster. You can bet that if you're a fighter 4/Wizard6/Eldritch Knight 10, and you're facing a superior spellcaster, you're going to use that spell, run up to him, and chop him into hamburger. 4 attacks per round, against an effective AC of between 10 and 14, when you have +17/+12/+7/+2 (before counting for STR bonuses, weapon focus, or the masterwork weapon bonus your magic weapon has when in a nonmagical area). If he also has Improved Critical, that wizard is going to be in trouble fast. He might not last one round.

The player running that character would be using Improved Trip and spamming trip all over the wizard, while the wizard couldn't get away due to the antimagic. Boring. Yeah. But effective. Those 52 hp won't last long....two rounds, maybe three? Or one, if any criticals are scored. Once the wizard is down, drop the anti-magic field, and either teleport away, or use Wall of Force (hemisphere) to give some breathing room for a round or two, to rebuff (depending on how quickly the cleric can dispel it).

And, yes, Disjunction. If you want to look at it from a realist perspective, it sucks for NPCs to use it, as they lose whatever they might gain from defeating the PCs (in terms of magic items). If you look at it from a gamist perspective, why *wouldn't* you use it? THey exist to fight the party members for X many rounds, then die. From that perspective it would be stupid *not* to use it.

Those tactics can all work. They're really pretty basic, and use stuff in the core rules. You asked for methods to show the wizard wasn't unkillable within the core rules, and you have them. They might not be pretty, but they work. And, IMO, if the spamming of Moment of Prescience, Stoneskin, Mind Blank, Spell Resistance etc. is putting you in a position where players are complaining they feel their characters are useless compared to the mage, then why *wouldn't* you use those tactics a few times? You can't have it both ways. You either want everyone to bow down and worship the wizard as the best character of all time, or you're looking for solutions to a problem in your game, where a smart player is playing the wizard character effectively.

If you've got all the members of your party doing nothing but making sure the wizard dominates the encounters, by using their buffs on him, and throwing themselves in front of any opponents trying to get at him...then, yeah, you know what? He'll dominate. No duh. That's pretty obvious. But the same thing would happen if you had the entire party devoting its resources to making the rogue, fighter, or cleric succeed.

But if it's a realistic campaign, where different characters have different motivations, different responsibilities, and they're not all aiming to pump up and protect one single character, then the entire story changes. Then the wizard isn't nearly as dominant. In my game, characters had depth like that. You know? Role-playing?

Frankly, the kinds of players who ran characters who demanded that everyone be there to support them were the ones who tended to wreck groups. Whether they were playing a wizard, monk or fighter, their mentality was such that they felt that everyone was there to make *them* look good. I suppose if you have a group of players who are all like that, and as DM, more power to you. I'm very thankful I haven't. And it wouldn't be the kind of group I'd even want to play in.

Big caveat here. If you *like* that kind of game, and those kinds of players, more power to you. But there are lots of different types of gamers, with different play styles, and all sorts of different campaign types. Not all of us will appreciate the same group dynamic.

It's a team game. Everyone needs everyone else. If the Wizard doesn't have the cleric to heal him and cast spell resistance and other buffs on him, and the rogue and fighter to keep people from running up to him and pummeling him, then he's going to have problems. His whole schtick is that he's powerful, but he needs other people....

The wizard is highly valuable. Very flexible. If played well, they're a big addition to most parties. They're probably one of my favourite classes. But unkillable? Hardly.

Banshee

 

[Werebat]

Please allow me to slightly disagree here. It's hokey and disrecpectful to the character's and the players who bother putting in the immense amount of time to play them the first time. There won't be a 5th time unless the player's are suckers for punishment, don't really care that much about versimilitude in the game, the DM couldn't care less or the game is about to implode. To invalidate tactics because it does not suit your story or precepts of your game is doing a disservice to the players unless they are on board with these changes.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I mostly agree with you. I still wouldn't have a problem with EVERY intelligent enemy with the means to do so having Anticipate Teleport up at all times, or with EVERY dragon with the ability to do so learning Ray Deflection. That's sort of boring and lame, and eats up resources that might be cool to vary now and then, but as far as versimillitude goes it makes perfect sense (the tactics those spells thwart are too good NOT to have them as routine parts of defense, for those who do not use them in the D&D world won't last long against the kind of enemies they're going to make).

Where it gets lame for me is, say, villain after villain with no access to anti-S/B/T magics having some mysterious way to thwart them (including the very lame "he had a scroll of it and he just HAPPENED to use it today...") Now and then is cool, too much is too much. Eventually the DM should just limit the power of the wizard already and provide an in-game reason why S/B/T (for example) doesn't work. This is exactly what I did in my own game back in the day.

- Ron ^*^

 

[Banshee16]

Firstly, before I go further, thank you very much for the extended response and the effort it would have taken: XP for you sir.

My players are not optimizers either. However they are conversant with and highly practiced with high level play, rules and tactics.

If somebody wants the McGuffin a valid tactic is let them go to the effort of getting it and then immediately taking it from them. I have found forcing time pressure on a high level group very hit and miss. As I tried to indicate to you before, letting the "time limit" expire becomes a valid tactic because just about any happening can be reversed or fixed well after the event. Unfortunately if you embrace and don't restrict the rules, high level parties can pick and choose with this "method". Or they can succeed with but a blip's difference to their resources.

This tactic does not work unless you can force the wizard within the landbound proximity of the "Antimagic-dude". This can work in dungeons but then your party can more easily protect the antimagic's enemy. The only way how this realistically works is to antimagic a natural flyer (but then the antimagic'd dude is a sitting duck for the rest of the party). As for focusing on the wizard, this ends up being counter-productive as the majority of attacks in the first two rounds will not work by which time the rest of the party and the wizard has taken out the primary threat in that time. Over-targetting the wizard or programming their death works. I do not see this as a fair tactic however every game session.

As you say, surprisingly effective (along with grease) at low levels... but we're talking high level here: 15th plus.

Powerful spellcasters are not dumb. If they think they are a reasonable chance of losing out, they will not risk being forced back to their Simulacrum. With this, party or the enemy will ambush the other if they feel the need to act. Because of the disparity in power level you will destroy the party in the process of highly challenging the wizard.

If you just have a "random" wizard taking on the party wizard with supposed ideal tactics, then you can challenge him. Story-wise though, this is a little unrealistic unless you carefully engineer it. It is not a tactic you can throw at a wizard more than once without becoming trite. It just does not make sense (in my gameworld at least anyway).

It does not offer a save, offers spell resistance or will be turned back on the caster - this is not how to use a dimensional anchor. Bad guy casts it on an invisible hit point sack minion and the sack chases after the caster similar to the antimagic tactic. This is not a difficult tactic for a high level party to deal with. It is only a minor challenge.

Mind Blank lasts for 24 hours. It becomes part of the wizard's early morning routine. Confusion attacks a wizards best save which a high level wiz would generally not have to make. It's a highly effective tactic against the rest of the party though (until the wizard gets to a high enough level to just mind blank the party).

Occupying the rest of the party works be it with spells or creatures of significance. Then the wizard resorts to summoning/gating if necessary. To then battle this effectively, you have to up the ante further with more powerful enemies which will usually result in a challenged wizard and several dead party members. This becomes the classic issue I have continually mentioned thus far: challenge the wizard, kill the rest of the party. In the main, I prefer to challenge the rest of the party and just accept that the wizard can pick and choose his influence on the encounter.

Quickened mirror image will ruin your day versus most enemies you try to inflict on the wizard. It forces enemy casters with their big targetted effects to not take the chance, forcing them to work on reducing the illusion count. [Only creatures with lifesense, true seeing or immunity to illusions can bust this and there is not many with these abilities: Dread Wraith from memory and not too much else with true seeing unless you engineer it].
Extend spell combined with high level means that most effects last until dispelled. Back up scrolls means that a wizard is only a time stop away from refuelling. Again, you can crack through this raft of defenses but only if you program it, but by the time you've done this the rest of the party have had their way with an enemy that is overfocusing.

These things do not work. Wizards have enough hit points to survive area of effect spells, their only real weakness unless they have energy protections in which case the efforts are wasted. As for the big longsword dude, come to daddy and let me dominate you and turn you against the harmless bowers (protection from arrows being a stock defensive spell). Same for the rogue (wizards fly almost constantly by the way at high level through the use of one effect, spell or another). The tactics you mention here do not work against a high level wizard. If they did, I wouldn't be whinging my off so to speak.

Pathfinder fixed the casting defensively thing by forcing a caster level check rather than a concentration check. However, the wizard has their defences up already so in terms of defense this is moot (it only really effects attacks). As well, quickened effects do not generate attacks of opportunity. This assumes that any wizard worth their salt will have this feat by high level. YMMV.

That sounds more like a mid-level wizard who got ambushed. A high level wizard has the buffs in place already (they get reset every time he learns his spells for the day). You make a good point though that an isolated NPC wizard is a completely different proposition to a party wizard with several powerful allies with them. The disparity is because generally at mid level, you have a powerful wizard but they are not surrounded by several characters of classes of an equal level. Mooks are worth almost nothing to a wizard against a PC party.

This plays precisely into my point of the unkillable wizard. The first handful of attacks at them are irrelevant and wasted (and need to be wasted if you want to have a decent crack at taking down the wizard). You end up challenging the party but not the wizard OR you end up challenging the wizard but killing the party. The fine line in between is too narrow such is the power of the wizards defenses, to the point of making initiative against them virtually irrelevant.

Huge kudos for the Feist reference by the way Its not the scrying that is necessarily the killer and it's not the rogue who stars but the cleric. This aspect of the game can be quite fun but the result is still the same - greater teleport will still work regardless of whether you have specifically scried there or not. As a once of though, sounds fun.

I have gauged from your numerous responses that you have a lot of mid-level experience but have not had repeated exposure to high level (15th plus) play on both sides of the screen. I am only adamant about what I'm saying because I have seen the same pattern repeatedly. What you have presented though is an excellent primer of tactics and for this again, I thank you for your time and effort. In regards to the original post, these are all tactics that are going to greater balance a mid-level party (the sweetspot that most groups play) when combined with the pathfinder rules (rather than 3.x). Please excuse my bluntness when I say that their effectiveness is blunted against a high level wizard. At least the ones I have played and have had to DM against.

My impression of the CharOp boards are that by mixing various levels of psionics with the core classes, you can get some whacky/cheesy levels of power. I have never embraced psionics myself so I don't know how true this is and what effect they would have on my game. I'm interested though in what gamerprinter was going to post. Perhaps my groups melee types are missing the boat?

Spell resistance gets given to everyone before an ambush. It is a common enough occurrence that I mention it. Alternatively, the mage can trick this out in an emergency by getting the cleric to place it into a particular ring or something for latter use (the exact equipment that does this escapes me at the moment).

Again, thank you very much for the extended response.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Thanks Herremann.

A few points.

You're absolutely correct in 3E that I have less experience with high level games. We had 1 campaign than ran for about 6-7 years, and we got to level 18. On average, we played once every week or 2 weeks, we did a lot of role playing, and as a consequence, leveling was slow. We also played several other campaigns in mid and low levels.

Just to be clear though....we didn't change up games because high level was unplayable. It's just that few of us had the patience to see campaigns through to lvl 20. The players wanted to try new characters, new ideas, and I was always wanting to try new campaign settings etc.

Now, my *players* played a lot more than I did. I've even asked a few about this topic, and their general opinion is that the Wizard *is* very powerful.....but is absolutely killable at high level, and is by no means the only worthwhile character in the party...which is where many of these discussions come from (I think)....players of other character classes feeling that they have no purpose at higher levels. And they've played far more high levels than I have. Regardless, the Wizard is still one of the more valuable high level characters. I just don't think the only one. Without the cleric or druid to heal, and a fighter to keep enemies from getting in close to him, he'll have more difficulty.

As to the flying wizard....absolutely....if there's no roof over his head, it's a great way to stay away from the melee guys. But the rogue and fighter can get up there too.....liftoff is only a carpet of flying or wings of flying away.

As to time limits, and reversing things........you're absolutely right. If you take the rules as written, letting that princess die while you rest and recover is fine, because you can True Res her after. In my game, I usually thought of the bigger implications of that. If any ruler can simply be rezzed whenever he dies, then who cares about assassins? Frankly, who cares about about old age? Anyone with money can just pay a druid to off them right before they die of old age, and then reincarnate them into a youthful body. Instant immortality! The unfortunate thing is that it turns the clerics (and by extension, the gods of the campaign world) into cash based instant spell dispensers. Where's the fun in that? It's likely a place where we're different in our games. In mine, the gods don't let just anyone be resurrected. Certain characters said they didn't believe in gods, or didn't want to follow any, didn't want to tithe to any churches etc. Well, good luck finding a god willing to use divine magic to bring you back. We had a character like that, and he basically had to agree to convert to the diety who was going to raise him, and agree to serve the church. So there was a consequence. At the time, we only had a druid, and the player explicitly said (out of game) that he would refuse reincarnation, because he didn't want to be a badger So, they had to find a cleric to cast the spell for him.

As to Mind Blank...yes, I'm aware Mind Blank has a 24 hour duration, and it makes perfect sense to use it. It's probably one of the abjurations with the longest duration. But it's a lvl 8 spell. Affects one creature. In a party of 4 characters, there are the 4 lvl 8 spell slots the wizard gets by lvl 20. Meaning no slots left for Moment of Prescience, unless you want to use a lvl 9 slot for it. But, yes, very effective at blocking confusion, dominate etc.

Not that I'm that concerned by wizards getting affected by Will based spells.

True Seeing was prevalent enough in my game. But we faced more humanoid opponents with class levels. If you're talking about just fighting monsters, then you're right. Not many creatures have it, that I'm aware of.

"That sounds more like a mid-level wizard who got ambushed. A high level wizard has the buffs in place already (they get reset every time he learns his spells for the day). You make a good point though that an isolated NPC wizard is a completely different proposition to a party wizard with several powerful allies with them. The disparity is because generally at mid level, you have a powerful wizard but they are not surrounded by several characters of classes of an equal level. Mooks are worth almost nothing to a wizard against a PC party."

In some cases, yes. I tended to use reason (and perception checks). If the party just butchered the gate guards, two rooms away from where the wizard is, then it probably made noise. He's going to buff himself. If the party was stealthy, avoided fights, used a sewer grate to sneak into the palace and bypass guards or whatever, then yes, they could get the drop on the NPC wizard. But also..........our party wizards used to debuff opposing wizards. They'd use Greater Dispel Magic and Dispel Magic early on in fights to get rid of buffs. The PCs didn't themselves usually use Disjunction....they wanted to gain whatever items the wizard might be carrying.

Now....I haven't played Pathfinder yet, and I think they changed how Dispel Magic works. It used to result in a bunch of dice rolling to see what effects were stripped away. And then all the fun recalculation of stats before the battle could resume.

As to Anti-Magic field...yes, the wizard would be smart to avoid it. But if the Eldritch Knight didn't use it until he got close, at that point the wizard can't really avoid it. Even it can be circumvented....it doesn't defend against walls of force, or prismatic walls and prismatic spheres. But now we're back to the rock/paper/scissors thing. Do you have Prismatic Sphere? Or Time Stop? Or Wish? Or Meteor Swarm? Or Shapechange? You only have four lvl 9 spells (if you're lvl 20).

I'm a huge Feist fan....it seemed an appropriate thread to drop the reference. He's huge on having unkillable wizards. Though, with the upcoming novel "Magician's End", I don't think that's going to last much longer. In any case, you're right, the scry backlash spell (or whatever it was called) is kind of a one trick pony. I don't remember if it could do enough damage to kill the wizard, or just send him crying for the cleric. But, if it's a circumstance where they're in the middle of an adventure, they're already had some fights, they're worn down a bit, and they scry to find out what's going on in the throneroom or whatever, then yes, it could be a very bad thing for the wizard.

You *are* probably better off asking about this in the Char Op boards. I don't post there, but I've occasionally skimmed, and you see some pretty sick combos, and the players there are flat out better at making game breaking characters than I am. I'm not sure if it's all dependent upon psionics. I'm sure if you look, there are threads about optimum characters using particular books. I've just never had the patience or interest in that type of game, as a lot of the builds are dependent upon getting weird synergy effects from feats, spells, or abilities that are from disparate books that were never really tested for use together.

I haven't posted any of this to say Wizards suck. I think they've been hit by the nerf bat more than enough in recent years.

Now, one spell has been left out of the discussion....Clone. If your Wizard has that....he's still killable....but it's pretty much like having a contingency resurrection in place, which is pretty darned useful. Of course, that's a little like a lich with their phylactery. Hopefully it's well hidden. Of course, it can be cast on any party member. So, if used properly, could make the entire party able to return from death. He'll still die until he's transferred to the clone however. And he loses his items as they stay with the original body. If the party is massacred, or can't carry the body/items back, then he's got to go back without all his items (and thus more vulnerable). Now....if you have a specialist...all bets are off...that spell might not be available. I had a lvl 17 Transmuter...so no Necromancy spells. In most of my games, Necromancy is described as Black Magic, corrupting the soul etc. so the spellcasters I have had, have stayed away from it.

Anyways, this discussion is starting to get exhausting, so I think I've said my piece at this point. It's been a good debate. Thanks for taking the care to post in an amicable fashion.

Banshee

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Those tactics can all work.

In my experience the only one that is consistently effective is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. You ignored the issues with the "antimagic" trick I mentioned (they are basically grounded unless they can fly naturally). This makes the tactic weak sauce unless you are in a cramped dungeon and in which case there are different issues in getting to the mage. I have had players that used this a lot and it is tactic that is very mixed in terms of results (except that it is a pain in the arse to adjudicate 100% of the time - the character sheets I produce for my players have a separate page of stats for exactly this!).

As for the team thing, it is, they are. When is it not. Just because the defensive level of the rest of the party is significantly lower than the wizard doesn't mean that they don't do the team thing. They're not there to prop up the wizard and they don't need to. Put the heat on the party and the rest of the party's defences will crack while the wizard holds out. This has a huge impact on constructing encounters that challenge an entire party. I can't generalise this any better, either you understand where I'm coming from or you don't.

The wizard dominates a DMs prep. It is a filter that any combat encounter has to go through to try and make sure it's fun and fair for everyone - the thinnest tight rope if ever there was one. I have tried to emphasise that play style, character optimization or whatever differences in group styles there may be, the central issue is the rules themselves. Because of what's there, this situation seems almost inevitable at high levels (unless of course the wizard's player ignores the defensive capacity of their wizard - kind of like a fighter's character not bothering with armour). I have DMed only one high level game without a wizard (a sorcerer instead). May I say that the difference was stark! (and sadly far easier and enjoyable).

At this point, let's just agree to say our experiences differ and leave it at that.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Werebat]

No offense, but you *did* read what I wrote didn't you?

"3-Sometimes (at least at lower levels) simple measures like using caltrops, or marbles can work wonders. A rogue in our party was renowned for carrying bags of marbles, and scattering them all over the floor under the feet of her enemies, forcing saves to avoid falling flat on the ground. DR doesn't protect against it, nor does mirror image if it's an area attack....nor does mind blank or spell resistance, etc. A simple fly spell would work, or levitate..if the wizard had them."

As I pointed out "Sometimes (at least at lower levels)".....

Did you miss that part? I never said the rogue was throwing bloody marbles at archmagi.

Geez.

Banshee

I'm sorry, I KNEW you meant low-level wizards, but read the thread title. No one is claiming that low-level wizards are OP -- they aren't. Adding a non-sequitur example like that just makes it look like you're grasping at straws. As for the other tactics, Herreman has already replied to them and I haven't much to add (there are other issues with time limits to quests due to player metagaming but I'm in a rush this morning so won't elaborate).

Meanwhile, the fact that you mentioned marbles in your list is still making me laugh...

<The marbles hit the floor and roll in all directions>

Archmage: "CURSES!!! My powers are negated!!!"



- Ron ^*^

 

[Banshee16]

At this point, let's just agree to say our experiences differ and leave it at that.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I'm game with that. Different games, different experiences.

Usually I tried to balance my encounters so there was something for everyone to do. The wizard had an arcane spellcaster to work against, the fighters had monsters, opposing fighters, rogues were working to get their sneak attacks in, etc.

I didn't ignore your comment about antimagic. It was a long post to respond to.....it's easy to miss something. You're right in the antimagic doesn't work if the wizard is already in the air. Great tactic indoors though.

In any case, I understand what you're saying. I'd generally say that with spells etc. outside of the core, I'd tend to agree with you. There's a spell I came across (9th lvl) where the wizard pulls his heart out of his chest, and puts it in a container. As long as the container isn't destroyed (has to be AC 10), the wizard can't die. Period. He can be at -100 hp and keep going. That's as unkillable as you can get. If someone finds that container, they can pretty much destroy it with one attack. Instant death, no save. Better be sure you hid it well. A little like the Horcrux from Harry Potter.

I think we've covered a lot of ground and can agree to differ on the topic. If you played in my game, you might see where I'm coming from, and if I played in your own, I'm sure it would be a different experience for me as well.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I'm sorry, I KNEW you meant low-level wizards, but read the thread title. No one is claiming that low-level wizards are OP -- they aren't. Adding a non-sequitur example like that just makes it look like you're grasping at straws. As for the other tactics, Herreman has already replied to them and I haven't much to add (there are other issues with time limits to quests due to player metagaming but I'm in a rush this morning so won't elaborate).

Meanwhile, the fact that you mentioned marbles in your list is still making me laugh...

<The marbles hit the floor and roll in all directions>

Archmage: "CURSES!!! My powers are negated!!!"



- Ron ^*^

But they're magic marbles of archmage disruption!

Looking back now, I can see where that could get confusing. I'm sure I was getting a little heated at one or two comments in the thread, so maybe I read your comment as more of an attack than you meant.

But you're right...the rogue stopped using the marbles after low level. It *was* a cool trick at the beginning though

It's all good.

Banshee

 

[Werebat]

But they're magic marbles of archmage disruption!

Looking back now, I can see where that could get confusing. I'm sure I was getting a little heated at one or two comments in the thread, so maybe I read your comment as more of an attack than you meant.

But you're right...the rogue stopped using the marbles after low level. It *was* a cool trick at the beginning though

It's all good.

Banshee

Nothing was meant as an attack and I'm sorry if I came off that way.

No doubt if we played in each other's games we'd have a much better idea of where the other was coming from.

One question though -- I believe it has been established that in designing PF, one of Paizo's goals was to reign in the power level of casters somewhat (sometimes they did this by bumping up the power level of the martial classes, so it might be more accurate to say that they were trying to "close the gap" between the class types).

Is it your opinion that martial classes are OVERPOWERED in PF? And if not, how is can this be so if you felt they were balanced in 3.5?

- Ron ^*^