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D&D 4E Are easy checks....easy? (4e spoliers)

Stalker0

Legend
Let's talk skill challenges for a moment.

At 1st level, an "easy" skill DC is 15. Well...how easy is that.

Let's pick our best guy for the job. We'll give him a +4 from his primary stat, and +5 for being trained, a pretty reasonable assumption. So he has a +9 to the roll, meaning if he can't take 10, then he will fail the check 25% of the time.

25% failure doesn't sound easy to me. Now let's take a guy with training but not the best at the skill, he only has a +2 from his stat. That's a 35% failure. I succeed only 2 out of every 3 times, doesn't sound very easy.

Now let's look at a moderate DC, which at level 1 is a 20. With our +9 guy, he needs an 11 or better, a straight up 50/50 chance to make a check. Let's also not forget that with this DC, you can't take 10, as it wouldn't be enough. Well...personally if I'm walking a tightrope and I have a 50/50 chance of falling off, I would consider that pretty hard.


How this really effects the players is with skill challenges. For the most part, skill challenges have moderate DCs for the challenge, and you cannot take 10. That means with every check you have a 50/50 shot at making it. This is assuming of course you are using one of your absolute best skills. Considering that you need twice the number of successes as you need failures....that means MOST skill challenges will statistically end in failure!!

For example, let's say you have a complexity 1, level 1 skill challenge for level 1 PC. About as straight forward as you can get right?

Let's assume moderate skill challenges for the board, and assume every player is rolling with a +9. Aka, everyone is got a good skill to roll on this one. The players chance of winning the challenge is....15.6%.

That's right, about a 1 in 6 chance for the most basic of challenges.
 
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Alkiera

First Post
I'll take this opportunity to say that the linear nature of randomness in d20 is one of the biggest issues I have with the system. Bell curves are so much nicer. Wonder how much it'd screw things up to switch it to 3d6, make 3 the 'crit fail' for rolls that have it, and 18 the 'crit success'. The average result would be 10.5, same as on 1d20, but the frequency of 10 and 11 as results would be a lot higher than the 10% of the time they show up on a d20. The odds on '3' or '18' are reduced to 1/216...
 


Blackeagle

First Post
Skill training is good, but not superb. You want someone who's really good at it, throw in Skill Focus, which is another +3 IIRC. That gives a 10% chance of failure on an easy roll. Skill focus versus a difficult roll would give a 35% chance of failure, so you're succeeding about 2/3 of the time. Even on a difficult check, you still have a 40% chance.

Throw in a +8 from aid another, and the skill focused character only has a 20% chance of failure even on the difficult level.
 

Sashi

First Post
Alkiera said:
I'll take this opportunity to say that the linear nature of randomness in d20 is one of the biggest issues I have with the system. Bell curves are so much nicer. Wonder how much it'd screw things up to switch it to 3d6, make 3 the 'crit fail' for rolls that have it, and 18 the 'crit success'. The average result would be 10.5, same as on 1d20, but the frequency of 10 and 11 as results would be a lot higher than the 10% of the time they show up on a d20. The odds on '3' or '18' are reduced to 1/216...


I'd go 2d10 before I went 3d6.
 

Bold or Stupid

First Post
Plus an appropriate racial +2 will surely help.

I can live with the failure probability on each roll as it seems a reasonable degree of risk, though if your 15% success chance is right (which it may well be) that seems a little low.
 

I also think 15 is too hard for an easy check. but it may epend how you define easy: easy for someone who is trained in that skill or not.

I am not pleased with skill challenges: with base chance of 10+ to succeed when you are trained, it should at least be 4 successes before more than 2 failures...
 

Sashi said:
I'd go 2d10 before I went 3d6.

play acane codex...

but that bell curve also makes it more boring, because you cant scale enconters as esily as in d20. Also you heavily force players to maximize his main attribute...

+2 to hit can mean hitting 6 times as often... with 3d6 its even worse...
 

Jack Colby

First Post
25% failure rate at low levels sounds fine to me. These things are only relatively easy: if something is truly easy, the DM shouldn't even be making PCs roll, he should just let them do it. The very act of making a check ought to indicate there's some challenging aspect, and that the outcome is in doubt. Why bother rolling if the character is virtually assured of success?

Additionally, it is a game, not a model of reality. If a character has a 50/50 chance of falling from a tightrope, umm, so what? It makes things interesting and unpredictable, which, from a game standpoint, is entertaining at the table. Give it a go, hero!
 


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