Are Fantasy RPGs always D&D spin-off's?

[Odhanan]

Simple question: do you think (medieval) fantasy role-playing games other than D&D (like Stormbringer, Warhammer, etc) are bound to become spin-offs of D&D itself?

EDIT for clarification:

Here's the core story of D&D according to Ryan Dancey:

"The "core story" of D&D is:

A party of adventurers assemble to seek fame and fortune. They leave civilization for a location of extreme danger. They fight monsters and overcome obstacles and acquire new abilities and items of power. Afterwards they return to civilization and sell the phat loot. Next week, they do it all over again."

Here's the entry of Mike Mearls journal talking further about this:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mearls/97347.html

So, is this "D&D story" the basic core story of every fantasy RPG? If not, how are these games specifically different? What makes a fantasy game different than D&D?

 

[Thunderfoot]

Yes, but I'll qualify that statement because, like all things, any thing that comes after will always be compared to the first. D & D has evolved but the basic premise, fantasy, magic, swords, monsters, dungeons and treasure are going to have to be present in any game of this sort. If not, they are kind of lame and quite unsuccessful King Arthur RPG, Lord of the Rings RPG, Wheel of Time RPG are solid games but very limited and limiting, and get old quickly. So, because of this similarity, yes, they will always be compared to and therefore emulate D&D.

 

[Xombie Master]

Warhammer may be, but Stormbringer is not! Anyone who has read the Elric books can tell you that.

 

[Pseudonym]

Simple question: do you think (medieval) fantasy role-playing games other than D&D (like Stormbringer, Warhammer, etc) are bound to become spin-offs of D&D itself?

Not sure what you mean exactly, so I'll vote no.

As a side question for the sake of debate, how would it be possible for a fantasy RPG to break from the D&D mold?

Sure, if mechanically different enough and with a hook of their own. Ars Magica, Rune Quest or Earthdawn for example.

 

[Crothian]

No, there are fantasy games that do break the D&D mold whatever that is

 

[hawkwing2k5]

Im not sure but what you mean by the quote D&D mold because I believe that D&D is based off of certain other fantansy settings

Conan
Dying earth
Lord of the Rings

These are a few samples but I think (yes I could be wrong on Conan) D&D draws from them there for with such a broad sample of fantasy settings its very hard, almost impossible for anyone to break the quote D&D stamp or mold.

I think that the problem is not origionality of other systems but the fact that D&D has lasted the longest and is the best recognized therefore it has be come a bench mark for other games to be compaired to.

Other settings can be just as fun. Another post cited Lord of the Rings, King Arthure, and Wheel of Time as great but limited settings. IMHO they are great settings but the creators focused on the main story line, instead of creating the setting as the main focus. In all three cases there is a "larger than life character or object that is the sole focus of the story romping around doing whatever they need to do. It makes it hard for the players to be little more than footnotes in the overall story, instead of being the focus of the game.


I'm interested to hear what others think on this thread

 

[Odhanan]

The D&D mold may be D&D's "core story" - i.e. something like "adventurers go on adventure, defeat the bad guys, loot them, sell their stuff and do it all over again the next week."

Stormbringer is not! Anyone who has read the Elric books can tell you that.

I see how Moorcock's novels may be different from D&D fiction in many ways, but how is Stormbringer different than D&D in its gameplay, in your opinion?

 

[Bastoche]

That poll is so superficial that it's pretty much meaningless. No offenses meant.

There's style of gaming and 2E vs 3E saw a huge style change were 1E vs 2E simply saw a simple drift.

1st, there's the "way" you play i.e. how the dm handles the game and how much "freedom" the PC actually have. 2nd, there's the tone and feel ex planescape vs ravenloft vs forgotten realms has HUGE differences in feel while they still uses the same rules.

3E is about a cooperative competition among the players vs the challenges put up by the DM, where "challenge" means "monster to kill", "trap to find", "plot to figure out". Despite what is claimed in the DMG, 3E is poorly suited to anything beyond "kick in the door" unless the players (gm included) go through some minor and/or major tweaks/house ruling.

2E was about having a self consistent fantasy universe where "magical things" are more or less technology.

1E is similar to 3E except typically, the "challenge" is a specific dungeon with all it's variables.

There's some fantasy RPGs out there where "challenge" means "overcoming/succumb to inner demons". Some of these games has as a purpose adressing specific philosophical questions while unfolding the story. Generally, local anwsers to these questions polarize enormously the direction where the campaign is going.

Then there's "tone". Grim'n'Gritty vs "flashy", the level of realism in the rules. The level of complication of rules, etc.

3E could technically be MUCH closer to a given sci-fi RPG then to another given fantasy RPG.

The example of LOTR vs D&D is a very good one because LOTR is exactly NOT D&D in feel. In D&D, your characters are in control. In LOTR, you are facing impossible odds only armed with hope (no big guns or vorpal swords). Etc...

 

[Bastoche]

The D&D mold may be D&D's "core story" - i.e. something like "adventurers go on adventure, defeat the bad guys, loot them, sell their stuff and do it all over again the next week."

Most are NOT about that. The first part "going on adventures" is so generic IMO it's meaningless. The the rest of the sentence is what D&D is ALL about. Most RPGs out there are NOT about that. D&D is quite exceptionnal in that sense actually.

Edit: you can play with the 3E rules set without doing the "kill monsters, loot, sell, repeat" but it usually requires tweaking of the rules. There are other games out there better suited to such game style (depending on said game style...)

 

[Greatwyrm]

I really don't see Warhammer as directly derivative of D&D. The whole tone of the world is pretty far from shining heroes saving the day and walking off with tons of cash that is usually associated with D&D. In Warhammer, you're lucky to survive with your sanity and a majority of your limbs.

I think part of what colors the discussion is that since D&D was the first and is the biggest, everything else automatically gets compared to it. Discussing most new games or settings starts with how it's "just like", "better than", or "completely different from" D&D.

As a side question for the sake of debate, how would it be possible for a fantasy RPG to break from the D&D mold?

I refer you to Talislanta and Violet Dawn.