Are Fantasy RPGs always D&D spin-off's?

[mcrow]

I say no because of the following RPGs that are not of the D&D mold:

Conan
A Game of Thrones
Talislanta

there are more, but I can't think of them @ the moment.

 

[Turjan]

Simple question: do you think (medieval) fantasy role-playing games other than D&D (like Stormbringer, Warhammer, etc) are bound to become spin-offs of D&D itself?

As a side question for the sake of debate, how would it be possible for a fantasy RPG to break from the D&D mold?

I voted no. Although I have some difficulties with your question .

First of all, medieval fantasy role-playing is a misnomer for D&D. Except for, maybe, swords and the particular kind of city wall, the feel of most D&D games and settings is specifically non-medieval. There are other fantasy games that fit this mold much better.

Which also answers the second part of the question. Is Pendragon like D&D? Or does HeroQuest look anything like it? I'd say no.

If your question is more along the lines what it takes to be a "medieval" fantasy RPG different from D&D and successful is a completely different kind of thing .

 

[Desdichado]

I say no because of the following RPGs that are not of the D&D mold:

Conan
A Game of Thrones
Talislanta

Even though the first two are d20!

I think the criteria for what is "the D&D mold" is to undefined. Odhanan's attempts to clarify it have only yielded a definition that is so broad that practically any game; even non-fantasy, would fit it.

For the record, I think plenty of games are non-D&D-like. Pendragon comes to mind immediately as a fantasy game that owes little to D&D other than the concept of RPGing in the first place.

 

[Whisper72]

I voted other.... most Fantasy RPG's are not spin off's, they are (IMHO) poor and thin imitations of the real deal. Sure, for some the rules may be better, or the concept behind them somehow cool, but for me, DnD has something all-encompassing, massive, you-can-do-anything-with-it and simply such a massive amount fo third party (be it fan-based or professional) support and history, that to me all other fantasy games pale in comparison. To me, DnD is 'the Mother of all Fantasy RPG's', and I find myself keeping coming back to it and finding most other rulesets somehow confining, thin and lacking...

All just IMHO. I am a homebrewer, and I simply love having so much material to play around with, complete with my massive (okay, maybe not compared to some here) old editions collection, there is such a wealth of stuff to draw from... I need it... I am a total rules and especially fluff junky... so sue me...

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

I voted "no."

Off the top of my head...

Pendragon
Warhammer Fantasy
Ars Magica
Exalted

All of those are pretty un-D&D-like.

 

[Odhanan]

Looks like the problem with the question comes from the "D&D mold" not defined. I thought it would be best to let posters define if there is such a thing as a "D&D mold" or not. My mistake.

Here's the core story of D&D according to Ryan Dancey:

"The "core story" of D&D is:

A party of adventurers assemble to seek fame and fortune. They leave civilization for a location of extreme danger. They fight monsters and overcome obstacles and acquire new abilities and items of power. Afterwards they return to civilization and sell the phat loot. Next week, they do it all over again."

Here's the entry of Mike Mearls journal talking further about this:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mearls/97347.html

So, is this core story the basic core story of every fantasy RPG? If not, how are these games specifically different? What makes a fantasy game different than D&D?

(edited first post according to this one)

 

[Wombat]

Simple question:

<snip>

Here's the core story of D&D according to Ryan Dancey:

<snip>

A party of adventurers assemble to seek fame and fortune. They leave civilization for a location of extreme danger. They fight monsters and overcome obstacles and acquire new abilities and items of power. Afterwards they return to civilization and sell the phat loot. Next week, they do it all over again."

First of all, I don't think this is a simple question at all.

If we are to take the definition that Mr. Dancey proposes as the basis of the discussion, not only are all fantasy game a take-off on D&D, but something close to 90% of all other rpgs are as well, whether they are fantasy or not. As such, I don't think this is a good working definition of what makes D&D special or different, nor is it useful for comparing other systems against.

Take, for example, one of my favourite games, Ars Magica. Many people will tell you have different this game is from D&D. Almost all of the characters are human. Each player runs multiple characters. You do not wander, but have a base, which is a cross between a village and a university. You have to deal with religion on a regular basis, and a real world religion at that. Major characters are more interested in studying than in adventuring. These are only some of the many points.

However, in a given adventure, AM and D&D are very similar -- many adventures centre around leaving your common surroundings, finding places of extreme danger, fighting monsters (or general opponents), and acquiring abilities and powers by overcoming them (advancement points). They then return with goods (often in the form of vis) that will make their lives happier, more profitable, and more powerful.

Is AM strictly a derivation of D&D? No, not at all.

Mr. Dancey's quote is nice, but it doesn't go very far. It is good for pointing out similarities between gamers, much as Joseph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces is great from cross-cultural identification of hero-tropes. However, just as Campbell would never have said that the Buddha and King Arthur were both derived from precisely the same source, neither is Mr. Dancey's quote there to suggest that all rpgs are the same.

There are a plethora of fantasy games out there. Some are directly inspired by D&D (GURPS comes to mind), while others are less so (such as the French rpg Agone).

If we accept the quote as the basis for all discussion we have to answer "Yes"; in reality, however, the answer is "No", mainly because the quote is not a useful definition.

 

[DaveMage]

"Spin-off" is a vague term.

"Similar" would probably be more accurate.

Of course, you could say that about any RPG...

 

[Turjan]

Here's the core story of D&D according to Ryan Dancey:

"The "core story" of D&D is:

A party of adventurers assemble to seek fame and fortune. They leave civilization for a location of extreme danger. They fight monsters and overcome obstacles and acquire new abilities and items of power. Afterwards they return to civilization and sell the phat loot. Next week, they do it all over again."

So, is this core story the basic core story of every fantasy RPG? If not, how are these games specifically different? What makes a fantasy game different than D&D?

As Wombat says, actual adventures might look very similar to D&D, although the feel of the game might be very different from D&D.

I mentioned HeroQuest. It's more epic fantasy than D&D, and your final goal is to achieve some great task for society on one of the hero planes (planes of gods, spirits, and so on). You have to build a social network in order to succeed. Plus, there is no loot selling. The game doesn't use money. If you get "phat loot", this will fall automatically to the social group you belong to, e.g., your clan. Or you actually spend some experience point to make it yours . This part is definitely different from standard D&D.

 

[mcrow]

Even though the first two are d20!

I think the criteria for what is "the D&D mold" is to undefined. Odhanan's attempts to clarify it have only yielded a definition that is so broad that practically any game; even non-fantasy, would fit it.

For the record, I think plenty of games are non-D&D-like. Pendragon comes to mind immediately as a fantasy game that owes little to D&D other than the concept of RPGing in the first place.

being d20 does not mean it is from the D&D mold IMO.

I think it has more to do with implied world (elves,dwarves, half-orcs, and such).