Are Fighter Levels Always 'Associated' Levels for Outsiders?

[Kaodi]

Associated Levels

Best way to determine associated levels I believe is by comparing the monster in question with extra levels to the monster with the same number of extra HD. The concept is a decent one, but there is at least one place where it doesn't work out at all, CR wise.

The dragon. I know, this is a bit of a thread hijack, but the it illustrates the point. Dragons, I would say, are too good for assoaciated class levels. I mean, look at them. I tried making a mature green dragon with 7 levels of sorcerer, only to find out that also, by the book, the pure dragon with the same CR was *much stronger*.

This may also be the case with some celestials.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I know, this is a bit of a thread hijack...

Not at all. My preoccupation with demons means I consider the balance issues with them to be paramount, but if I used dragons regularly, I'd probably be running into the same problems. I'd never thought of it 'til now.

Just a thought - what about multiclass humans with incompatible classes? Say you have a human Sor10/Ftr4. By the book, a CR14 challenge. If the Fighter levels are considered 'nonassociated,' he becomes a CR12 challenge - which actually seems more credible, anyway.

 

[Kaodi]

House Rule

That would be a good house rule, Sep. By the same logic though, I wonder how you would rate something like a Cleric 5/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4... CR 5 + CR 1.5 + CR 6 = CR 12.5? hehehe...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I would think that most outsiders consider fighter type classes and prestige classes associated. While I haven't worked with anywhere near the level of characters that Sepulchrave uses, it seems to me (from statting out a number of celestials and fallen celestials) that fighter type levels play to the creatures' strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. For instance, the primary weaknesses of celestials tend to be low hit points and merely passable armor classes. However, if one tacks on fighter levels, (and in so doing ups their stats to the elite array), their con bonusses and hit points soar rather quickly. Similarly, the simple four points of AC from a chain shirt, etc often boosts a celestial's AC from decent to exceptional. Feats enable them to take advantage of their superior attributes too. A Ghaele Eladrin Holy Liberator with a 30 strength screams for power attack and cleave.

Now, there is an issue with class levels often not being as good as advancing by HD. That, however, is IMO, an issue with advancing by HD often being too cheap in terms of CR. A Ghaele Fighter 7 is easily superior to a human fighter 20. (3 HD and 3 points of BAB buy him a +14 strength mod, a boatload of natural armor and immunities, good saves, SR, special abilities, and the spellcasting abilities of a 14th level cleric (Which might make Clr 12/Ftr 8 (less BAB, less spellcasting capability, more hp) a better CR 20 comparison)). If that Ghaele is inferior to a CR 20 ghaele advanced by HD, that's IMO more a problem with advancing by HD than fighter not really being an associated class.

Other classes might or might not be associated with the outsider depending upon its abilities. For instance, bard should be associated for Lillends and cleric for Ghaele Eladrin but wizard wouldn't be associated with either.

 

[Olive]

Lots of 'em, actually. Mostly demons - in order to differentiate between their roles. I've had to change my perception a bit e.g. a Succubus Rog3/Blk7 is not necessarily "a succubus with rogue and blackguard training" but more of "a powerful succubus, who is best mechanically represented by..." One of the things that pissed me off about the BoVD was the description of 'a balor with special fighter training'

I think that is a good way to look at it. The dragon my PCs recently fought had a level of ftr, but it wasn't a fighter trained creature, it was just tough!

I guess I'm asking if the high BAB, good Fort save and d8 hit points are sufficient to carry the decision of whether Fighter should be associated or not. After all, high skill points alone do not a rogue make, and a good Will save and a few spell-likes does not a sorcerer make.

Pretty much yes. There might be some fiends which don't improve much from ftr levels, but I can't think fo any right now. Some, like the advespa devil, would hugely benefit as it's main weakness is it's low HP.

Which brings me to another question. What about PrCs? Should they always be associated? The fact that an outsider can often automatically qualify for the class would suggest that it is 'directly associated.'

I say no. It's a jugement call, but from experience, I thinkt hat even the three 'fiend of...' PrCs in FF aren't automatically associated, as many of the abilities aren't really directly combat related, or make the fiend more of a challenge. The abilities are cool roleplyaing/fluff bits, but not much else.

Just a thought - what about multiclass humans with incompatible classes? Say you have a human Sor10/Ftr4. By the book, a CR14 challenge. If the Fighter levels are considered 'nonassociated,' he becomes a CR12 challenge - which actually seems more credible, anyway.

I think this is probably a good call, and might start using it in my games.