Are Gognards killing D&D?

[Brother MacLaren]

I wish the mods would let me put money on these kinds of statements.

And if I could put money on the various predictions that "Everybody is going to 4E no matter what they say on the boards," I would.

 

[drothgery]

And if I could put money on the various predictions that "Everybody is going to 4E no matter what they say on the boards," I would.

Now, I wouldn't say that. I believe many people who currently are saying they won't go to 4e probably will end up switching, and most of those who don't switch (and did switch to 3.5) are more likely to stop playing regularly at all than to keep playing an older edition of D&D. But that's not to say that there won't be 3.x holdouts. Heck, we've got dialgo around and he's an OD&D(1974) holdout.

 

[BlackMoria]

The only thing that will kill D&D is WOTC.

Every edition of the game has had its devotees and those people are still playing the edition they prefer. Each move to a new edition WILL leave people behind. It is the stark reality of a game which defies being pigeonholed. Look at threads about what is the spirit or essence of D&D and you will find that it is different for every person.

A number of people feel that 4E may be drawing a line in the sand that they can't cross. That doesn't make them disgruntled grognards holding back or threating the future of the game. It just means they are staying with a version of the game which defines D&D for them.

 

[tenkar]

No, more like we're 'desupporting' you and your silly preferences. No more material for you either. You will have to either write it yourself or find a third party publisher we're also not going to support. Pardon us while we reboot. We suggest that you end all of your current un-convertable campaigns in line with our release schedule and set aside large sums of cash for the 8-10 years worth of supplements. Thaaaaaanks.

Kinda like Microsoft ending support for Win 98 and in short time XP as it has moved on to Vista?

Our "Hobby" is a "Business" and if it isnt a viable one it will wither (tho' it might not die thanks to the OGL).

No one is forcing anyone to move on to 4e... but Wizards is moving on to 4e and it will be what they are supporting. To try and support 3.5e and 4e at the same time would be commercial suicide for them. Since core books are the bread and butter of Wizards, and since the hobby we all enjoy is apparently not expanding, the most successful way to sell more core books is to "reboot" and put out a new edition. It is the way to keep the bean counters at Hasbro at bay, and it might put a better system in our hands... or it might not.

Just like I am in no rush to upgrade to Vista when XP is working just fine for me, I have no driving need to rush out and buy 4e when it is released. No need, but I have the curiosity of a gamer, so there is a good chance I'll get the core books when they are released.

Maybe it is a good business decision for Wizards... but those core books better be heads and shoulders over my 3.5 core books, or else my curiosity will be sated, and the rest of the line will not see any more of my money. I have a 3.0/3.5 library to last me several lifetimes.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Now, I wouldn't say that. I believe many people who currently are saying they won't go to 4e probably will end up switching, and most of those who don't switch (and did switch to 3.5) are more likely to stop playing regularly at all than to keep playing an older edition of D&D. But that's not to say that there won't be 3.x holdouts. Heck, we've got dialgo around and he's an OD&D(1974) holdout.

You know, I loved 3.5, but I don't think I'll be sticking with it. I'll either quit gaming or revert to BECM. While I loved 3.5's flexibility and elegant d20 resolution mechanic, I eventually got sick of the character build optimization, players looking forward more to what abilities they would get over the next few sessions than what their characters would accomplish in the storyline, numerous stacking modifiers to keep track of, splatbooks increasing power, an increasing design aversion to PC death, etc.

BECM didn't have any real options for plotting character development (aside from weapon mastery, which I think I'd rather do without). That's a benefit in my view right now.
BECM didn't have splatbooks increasing power -- it just had Gazetteers and modules.
BECM had "dead levels" as the norm, so there seemed to be more focus on accomplishments and actions than on abilities. The players looked forward to buying a ship and exploring, not to getting Feat X or Special Ability Y.
BECM didn't have many stacking modifiers or buffing spells. The fighter's damage was almost always 1d8+3 (+2 Str, +1 magic), not something to be recalculated every round as his Power Attack changed or as the bard song expired.

I switched because my best friend wanted to play the brand new shiny 2E. But BECM is still a great system.

 

[helium3]

Grognards aren't killing D+D. They're trying to keep it alive.

You made some pretty good points in your post. The only critique I would make, and this is really just my own personal opinion, is that the thing that "grognards" tend to do that makes them such whipping boys is treating anyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint like they're inbred, slack-jawed hillbilly hicks with an IQ of 52.

But now, with 4E, it's pretty clear that even people who wouldn't traditionally be considered "grognards" do that. I suppose the definition of the term needs to be widened a bit.

 

[mhensley]

Grognards are a disproportionate part of message boards.

Fixed that for you.

 

[AWizardInDallas]

Kinda like Microsoft ending support for Win 98 and in short time XP as it has moved on to Vista?

I've heard this comparison before and it's not all that valid. Operating systems are a form of technology and technology advances through a process of gradual refinement. Microsoft is not asking me to dump all my files and start over is it?

D&D, by contrast, is not a form of technology and is not being revised or refined. It's being redone, though to what degree remains to be seen. However, it has been made clear that your current characters and campaigns will not be continuable with the new game system. That's a pretty serious level of change. Microsoft also offers an upgrade discount. Surely, you're not suggesting...um, no I didn't think so...

 

[WayneLigon]

And if I could put money on the various predictions that "Everybody is going to 4E no matter what they say on the boards," I would.

I wouldn't quite go that far, but I would say that it seems very likely that there will be a very large discrepancy between what people say and what they will do.

 

[JohnSnow]

I've heard this comparison before and it's not all that valid. Operating systems are a form of technology and technology advances through a process of gradual refinement. Microsoft is not asking me to dump all my files and start over is it?

D&D, by contrast, is not a form of technology and is not being revised or refined. It's being redone, though to what degree remain to be seen. However, it has been made clear that your current characters and campaigns will not be continuable with the new game system. That's a pretty serious level of change. Microsoft also offers an upgrade discount. Surely, you're not suggesting...um, no I didn't think so...

Whenever Microsoft launches a major upgrade for its OS, you have to buy all your programs over again. That's pretty similar.

Microsoft also charges $400 for a new OS. Surely you aren't suggesting...