Are Gognards killing D&D?

[Ty]

I doubt that the brand manager has any say so over those particular things - I'd love for Rouse to answer that question. The first D&D movie rights were acquired before WoTC even existed and they had virtually no input or creative control over the film. I would highly doubt that they had any sort of 'yes/no' authority on the second one; it's very rare that producers allow that to happen. I suspect they're much like book authors: the dealings happen at a higher level and they have to sit there and watch what happens just like we do.

I dunno how much yes/no input they had to D&D Online but again I would expect it to be minimal.

That's why I referenced the generic term "brand manager" which they came up with (I'm more familiar with the term Program Manager, but whatever) rather than any specific individual. Corporations of all stripes are notorious for placing one person in charge of program as its "champion", telling them to increase the brand value, and then burning them in the end with hackneyed and trite business B.S. that is not the fault of the actual "brand manager." I don't lay the fault at any one person's feet alone. It's merely an observation of stumbles by the company from a business perspective.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

D&D can't be killed. As you would expect of any abomination that emerged from a sea of Gygaxian narrative and the Blackmoor hit location charts, it is one tough beast. Cutting off the head and feeding the corpse to lawyers didn't work, so that should tell you something right there. Weighting it down with rules bloat and throwing it into the Sea of Bankruptcy didn't work. The atrocity of TWO D&D movies couldn't even slow it down. It's like the DM's pet NPC, it will keep coming back.

MAYBE there's a secret ritual encoded in the 1E DMG that will do the job (my hunch is that it involves the d12), but you probably need a party of 6-10 20th-level Grognards, plus retainers, to make that ritual work.

 

[Roland55]

D&D can't be killed. As you would expect of any abomination that emerged from a sea of Gygaxian narrative and the Blackmoor hit location charts, it is one tough beast. Cutting off the head and feeding the corpse to lawyers didn't work, so that should tell you something right there. Weighting it down with rules bloat and throwing it into the Sea of Bankruptcy didn't work. The atrocity of TWO D&D movies couldn't even slow it down. It's like the DM's pet NPC, it will keep coming back.

MAYBE there's a secret ritual encoded in the 1E DMG that will do the job (my hunch is that it involves the d12), but you probably need a party of 6-10 20th-level Grognards, plus retainers, to make that ritual work.

You forgot the mandatory artifact. The ritual will never work without the proper artifact.

 

[ShadowDenizen]

I guess my quetion is in the definition of "Grognard".

As an antecdote..
First, a little about me:
I'm a 34 YO male, freelance writer by trade. I've lurked on ENWorld for about 4 years or so. I've been a fantasy reader since I was little(everything from Leiber to Moorcock, Tolkien to Lovecraft, Jordan to Goodkind.) I've also been a D+D player since I was little kid, though my interest is primarily in modules and settings, rather than new "crunchy" bits.

That out of the way...
I currently play in two groups.

My Thursday night group is pretty easy-going, and are always up for trying a new system or setting. Our primary setting is Age of Worms, though we've decided to try "Savage Tide", "Pathfinder", and "War of the Burning Sky" in the future.

The group of 7 ranges in age from 19 to 40, with most falling in the median range of late-20's, early-30's. Most started during 2nd Edition, though the younger people were inagurated with 3.5. We all enjoy each other's company, and hang out outside the game. We hahve shorter sessions, and don't always accomplish alot, but I never regret the time spent.

The other group?
Is a "Midnight" group. Much more rules-oriented and productive gameplay-wise, but not quite as much fun overall. The ages are more consistently mid-30's, and most have been RP'ing consistnely since 1E.

In terms of upgrading?
My Thursday group seems to be unanimously of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" school, preferring to stay with the current edition of D+D (though we do try different settings and systems from time to time), whereas the Saturday group can't stop talking about the newest tidbits of 4E.


So, who, if anyone in this example, would be considered a Grognard? Could you consider a teenager who cut his teeth on 3E but doesn't want to upgrade to 4E a grognard?

What about me, who has been playing since 1E but is strangely apathetic about 4E?

 

[Ty]

I guess my quetion is in the definition of "Grognard".

...

So, who, if anyone in this example, would be considered a Grognard? Could you consider a teenager who cut his teeth on 3E but doesn't want to upgrade to 4E a grognard?

What about me, who has been playing since 1E but is strangely apathetic about 4E?

If you answer any of the following as "Yes" you are a grognard according to the Grognard Destroyers:

1. If you think that 4th Edition could use some further tweaks or has problems and have voiced that opinion rather than remaining silent.

2. If you played 1st Edition and find some things were actually okay with 1st Edition.

3. If you believe sacred cows aren't just monsters for slaughtering with a Golden Wyvern Adept SpinKick Nosebuster move.

4. If you believe 4th Edition is an attempt to kill the kill the Grognards upon which event, D&D will reign supreme in the world of RPG; whereupon there will be much rejoycing.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You forgot the mandatory artifact. The ritual will never work without the proper artifact.

Well, it is a secret ritual, and I'm only a 7th-level Grognard, so naturally I'll get some of these things wrong. But I imagine that in a few more editions, the d12 will be as rare as an artifact...

 

[Ty]

Well, it is a secret ritual, and I'm only a 7th-level Grognard, so naturally I'll get some of these things wrong. But I imagine that in a few more editions, the d12 will be as rare as an artifact...

Pfft, 7th level? You don't even have retainers yet! You gotta get to 9th level for that. At least I'm getting my 3sp per person per year off my holdings. Cookie if you get the class that got 3 sp per person.

 

[rounser]

D&D can't be killed. As you would expect of any abomination that emerged from a sea of Gygaxian narrative and the Blackmoor hit location charts, it is one tough beast. Cutting off the head and feeding the corpse to lawyers didn't work, so that should tell you something right there. Weighting it down with rules bloat and throwing it into the Sea of Bankruptcy didn't work. The atrocity of TWO D&D movies couldn't even slow it down. It's like the DM's pet NPC, it will keep coming back.

MAYBE there's a secret ritual encoded in the 1E DMG that will do the job (my hunch is that it involves the d12), but you probably need a party of 6-10 20th-level Grognards, plus retainers, to make that ritual work.

Well gentlemen, if that fails...we could nuke it.

But I suspect it would just reform in 1d4 rounds, and be radioactive to boot.

 

[Hairfoot]

2. If you played 1st Edition and find some things were actually okay with 1st Edition.

Yes. For some reason, the Grognard Destroyer campaign seems to hinge on the notion that experienced D&D players, having seen the great ideas and flaming wrecks of previous edtions, have no worthwhile views about what makes the game good or bad.

3. If you believe sacred cows aren't just monsters for slaughtering with a Golden Wyvern Adept SpinKick Nosebuster move.

"Three nosed otter lotus punch combo!"
"Aiiieee! Heavenly brick swims ketchup river!" Kchung!
"Double secret lentil flail kick!" Swoosh!

Another term for "sacred cows" is "things that have remained in D&D because they're good and people like them". Slaughtering them en masse to appeal to an audience appreciative of wirework Jet Li films and Streetfighter video games may yet backfire.

 

[Thurbane]

I can't seem to find the post now, but whoever claimed there was no backward compatibility of 2E to 1E, was absolutely wrong.

I started playing the Red Basic set and AD&D 1E around the same time, in 1984 or so (I'm now 35). When 2E came out, our regular group adopted it right away. One of the big drawcards for us was it's back compatibility with AD&D 1E.

Our 2E game often included a lot of 1E crunch, and we would often run 1E modules with 2E characters. Converting something from 1E to 2E, or vice versa, was a simple and intuitive process that rarely took more than a few minutes.

When our group resumed after a hiatus, there was a lot of debating about whether we should stick with 2E or move to the current set (3.5). Of our group of 5, 3 were 1E/2E veterans, 1 had only played a smattering of 2E but mostly 3E, and 1 was new to D&D altogether.

So we bit the bullet, and went to 3.5. After a lot of initial skepticism, we all eventually grew to like 3.5 (although various DMs still used houserules for a more 1E/2E feel). The major stumbling block for me, was trying to resume my established 2E campaign world, as the various crunch changes made it difficult to easily port over to 3.5. But I got there eventually, and was glad after I did.

I can assure everyone here, I won't be repeating the process with porting it to 4E. WotC have made it abundantly clear that there will no real guidelines to conversion, nor the system designed with ease of conversion in mind. The fluff is also getting so drastically altered it will seriously impinge on the tone (and even crunch) of my homebrew.

I can live with that - but it does mean that my primary group won't be contributing any finances to the future of D&D through any 4E products. If that's an example of a "grognard" killing D&D, then guilty as charged, I suppose. My disposable cash flow will go into supplements and adventures pitched at 3.5 gamers by various publishers. Does this mean I want to see 4E fail, or am telling people not to buy it? Not at all...

Also, add me to the group that doesn't buy into the fact that 4E will net a significant number of new gamers. Various other systems who have upgraded editions over the years have failed to woo me with promises of a relaunch. If I wasn't interested in Yakmaster 3E, Yakmaster 4E Colossal Editon (now with more Yaks) is hardly likely to win me over. Neither, I suspect, is it any more likely to draw in new P&P RPGers.

Couple this with the withdrawal of hard copy monthly periodicals, and the inferred reliance on a web based subsciption to keep up with the latest ed, and I suspect the "future of D&D" is on shaky ground. As many others before me have said, there is nothing wrong with looking for ways to rope in new gamers, but to do it at the risk of alienating hardcore fans with disposable income is bordering on commerical suicide.