Are Gognards killing D&D?

[Reynard]

So.. Their own person in charge of RPGs said that they believe that D&D's success is tied to it's ubiquitousness... meaning it's success is BECAUSE more people know how to play it than any other system. In short... the existence of Grognards (not new players) is what keeps D&D on top. Without that ESTABLISHED fanbase, they are just another game system.

The people in the industry know this...so why they are ignoring this in the design and development of 4e..

They aren't ignoring it, not by a long shot. After all, so far the *only* marketting WotC has done is toward the established fanbase. in fact, a particulr subsection of the established fanbase: those that use the internet in conjunction with their engagement in the hobby. it won't be until the Preview Books hit Barnes and Nobles that the other part of the existing fanbase gets marketted to, and who knows how long until these mythical "new customers" get marketted to.

That said, they aren't really hittinga home run with the current target. Even among those that are excited about 4E, there's a sizable portion that dislike, for example, the Mearlsian naming conventions.

 

[Minicol]

This is a sorry state of affairs.

Look at what happened with all of those other games like Chess, Monopoly, Golf... once you get old people playing then you might as well can the whole thing. No game can survive under those circumstances.

One of the messages I keep reading is buy 4e or D&D dies.

Why the heck should I care ?

I bought every single WOTC rules book until the announcement. PLUS about 95% D20 paper-printed books. Who else has helped these companies survived this much ? Me and a few other "old" people.

Because, if you don't buy, all these guys, all these pretty deisgners and their demi-fandom are soon on the dole.

And despite all this buying, it still does not sell enough to be worth keeping 3e ? then D&D is already dead. not just to me, but as a whole.

You can buy the "zombie D&D" 4e all you want. It is stillborn. In fact you should. It will show you what supporting a hobby with no return is like. Kind of what charity business is. I am certain you will have the same deeppockets and spending habits with 4e than I used to.

It will be fun to see what comes of it after WOTC 2008 fiscal year, I believe.

 

[Mistwell]

One of the messages I keep reading is buy 4e or D&D dies.

Why the heck should I care ?

I bought every single WOTC rules book until the announcement. PLUS about 95% D20 paper-printed books. Who else has helped these companies survived this much ? Me and a few other "old" people.

Because, if you don't buy, all these guys, all these pretty deisgners and their demi-fandom are soon on the dole.

And despite all this buying, it still does not sell enough to be worth keeping 3e ? then D&D is already dead. not just to me, but as a whole.

You can buy the "zombie D&D" 4e all you want. It is stillborn. In fact you should. It will show you what supporting a hobby with no return is like. Kind of what charity business is. I am certain you will have the same deeppockets and spending habits with 4e than I used to.

It will be fun to see what comes of it after WOTC 2008 fiscal year, I believe.

And if you are wrong? If 4e is a huge success, will you eat crow and apologize in public the way you previously bashed in public?

 

[Raven Crowking]

By the time I strip out all the per encounter stuff and Wowisms, and clerics healing by hitting people with an axe, I'll be down to the forward.

Wait....can my cleric heal someone by hitting that person with an axe?

We've got a theory that says that D&D is the most popular roleplaying game because it is the game more people know how to play than any other game. (For those of you interested researching the theory, this concept is called "The Theory of Network Externalities.")

Makes me wonder why they are changing D&D into a game that no one knows the rules of, combined with an unwillingness to release rules information early enough that a bunch of folks might know the rules of it by release time.

RC

 

[Toryx]

In short... the existence of Grognards (not new players) is what keeps D&D on top. Without that ESTABLISHED fanbase, they are just another game system.

The people in the industry know this...so why they are ignoring this in the design and development of 4e..

They have to know that changing and sacrificing too much of the core game will remove their competative advantage.

As a result, Hasbro is systematically alienating it's base of people familiar with the game, that familiarity upon which D&D's dominance is based.

Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

I disagree. D&D has long been an evolving, growing system. For all the changes that are being made now for 4th edition (that we know of primarily from rumor), I don't think they're so great as people are making it out to be. As someone who played D&D before AD&D and has subsequently played every version, I'd have to say that 3.5 is hugely different from the first system I've played. There have been a lot of changes and a lot of sacrifices all along. Some for the better, some for the worse, but the game is still here all these years later.

I'd also say that the numbers of players I've encountered since 3rd edition was released are far larger than any period since the '70's, and probably substantially larger than even when it was the new thing riding the wave of the success of The Lord of the Rings. It's the reasons for WoW and all the other MMORGs people are always freaking out about, and the fact that so new players are getting involved that a ridiculous term like "Grognard" can come into use illustrates that it's success is as much because it appeals to so many different people as anything else.

I'm not trying to diminish the importance of the old timers. It's significant too. But there isn't such a huge risk in making large changes to the game. 30 years of changes bears that out, and the substantial numbers of new players to the game who have still played older systems like 1st ed. are also testaments to that.

No one's killing the game, and even if 4th edition turned out to be crap, it still wouldn't be dead. You'd still have your contingents across the world sticking with 1st edition, 2nd edition, and 3.5. And I bet there will always be a group of people who hang onto 4th edition with just as much fervor. D&D satisfies a lot of different requirements, and that's what keeps it going. As long as there are players, young and old, who are taking time to argue about it as passionately as people have around here since the Announcement, that'll remain true.

 

[SteveC]

Wow, if you were betting on me and my gaming group, of which I am the only one who posts here, you would be losing that bet. Out of the 8 players and the DM (that's me) not a single one has any desire to switch, and 5 of them specifically said they don't want to even think about switching game systems until the current campaign is done (sometime in 2009 or 2010, if the gaming schedule works as it has). Heck, I still have the whole Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords campaign to run! Of the three other gaming groups I associate with, one just switched to 3.5 from 3.0 this year, one is switching to 3.0 from 2e after the new year, and one is still playing OD&D and has no plans to switch to anything.

Well there is a reason I had some of the specifics in the bet that I did. I certainly don't believe that someone who's playing OE at the moment will be won over to 4E very easily, but I'm going to maintain a very high level of confidence that the people who are playing 3.5 at the moment will almost completely pick up 4E and run with it. I say this both because it's shiny but also because I'm confident it will be good.

I'm of the opinion that the "marketing" we've seen for 4E up until now has been extremely bad, largely because it hasn't been coordinated or given real crunch. The designers who have been talking recently are game designers, and not marketing or publicity people. That's a good thing, though: the skills to market and create publicity for a product are very different than those necessary to create it. I'd say they're actually polar opposites. So let's hope WotC gets a real marketing plan going soon, so we can settle down a bit.

If it turns out that 4E is a big old steaming pile of poo, not only will I admit to being wrong, I'll certainly join people in developing the game along the lines of the 3.75 model we've been hearing about. I'm very confident that won't happen, because the designers who are making the game are just too good for that.

That's just my opinion and all that implies...

--Steve

 

[Cadfan]

\So.. Their own person in charge of RPGs said that they believe that D&D's success is tied to it's ubiquitousness... meaning it's success is BECAUSE more people know how to play it than any other system. In short... the existence of Grognards (not new players) is what keeps D&D on top.

That would be true IF AND ONLY IF "existing players" were coterminous, or close to coterminous, with "grognards."

Unfortunately, grognards tend to be bashers rather than fans. They tend to have existing ideas about how the game ought to be played, and are usually the ones leading the charge to complain about each and every new release.

In fact, I'd suggest that the defining feature of the grognard is not age, is not amount of time spent playing, but is that they're a fan who has gone sour, and is now detrimental to the hobby.

A player who knows how to play, knows how to run a game, knows the ins and outs of managing a gaming group and teaching new players, and yet won't shut up about how the game is going to hell in a handbasket, is not a benefit to the hobby, and constitutes a black hole in that network that Dancey is discussing.

 

[Ty]

They are also very good troubleshooters who aren't afraid to speak their minds. But yes, they can be very annoying people. They have a tendency to rain on parades, pee in Cheerio's, and otherwise make life miserable for optimistic types.

I've been termed a grognard but I don't fit the technical definition. I wasn't part of Napolean's Old Imperial Guard nor was I a former wargamer turned D&D'er. I am however, a disappointed fanboy of D&D.

On a side note, I really wish they'd actually publish a decent computer RPG in the vein of the old Baldur's Gates. Darn those were fun games. Not like those new-fangled games like WoW or Neverwinter Nights 2 and whatnot. Those are just horrible abominations of the game systems.

 

[Klaus]

no. grognards like me were wargamers first.
still are.
i am a wargamer first.

So you always prefer to play warlocks, warmages, warlords, warforged, warchanters and warshapers, as drawn by WAR?

Make love, not war, mang!

You should be a lovegamer!

 

[Minicol]

And if you are wrong? If 4e is a huge success, will you eat crow and apologize in public the way you previously bashed in public?

I do apologize already that my post is unduly harsh. At the same rate, i am irritated beyond reason by what I read, and I should know better.

To be honest no. I will stand by my opinions. If 4e is good so much the better for you all.
I don't see why you should not be enjoying it, if it is true.

But I won't enjoy it. And since I won't, don't expect me to spend 1cent on it. I will not even read the 4e SRD.

Besides crow is a bit tough.

To be honest, I expect 4e to be a huge success ... THE FIRST YEAR.

I don't believe it can be otherwise. but the overall success will not depend on the first year alone : how is WOTC hoping to survive beyond the PHB sales ? They will have to sell further books (as stated in the "yearly PHB" ...) and so on.

Who is willing to buy the whole 4e set of books to keep them afloat ? Not me this time around.

Best regards.