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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mkletch" data-source="post: 403603" data-attributes="member: 3396">Western culture and certain western belief systems cannot fully explain the world we live in and the actions/desires/fears of those who live in that world.  It may be reasonably successful with things/people in western culture, but it is by definition limited.  If D&D is built from the same foundation, it will have the same limitations.The fact that the saying now means something different, or is applicable against that which it in former times it supported should be an uncomfortable revelation.  I did not intend it that way and will attempt to sympathize.Bingo.  Then again, Tsyr, we held a similar opinion before, so you were not my 'target audience'.  Preaching to the choir, I am.There is another discussion on these boards about lawful and chaotic societies.  It very much parallels this one, except it is getting less traffic since 'evil' is apparently more interesting to talk about.  In any case, we have the same situation here.  How to compare good and evil when nobody can agree on what they mean.  Philosophers have wrestled with it for millennia.  Perhaps it is the fact that we discuss it that is important.I had a discussion/argument with a gaming buddy for over a month via email concerning a particular female paladin in his camaign whose paladinhood he threatened to revoke because she flirted with some random NPC.  He had his head so stuffed up into his medieval, western, JC position, and could not recognize that many of those belifes were suspended by the fact he was playing in a game where:1) women are equal to men in most cultures, or even superior to men in some cultures,2) good and evil are not virtues but tangible things (i.e. a holy or unholy sword), and3) the characters lived in a polytheistic and polydeistic scenario of his own design.Basically, he wanted this paladin to be played like the stereotypical, cartoonish "stupidpaladin" of 1st and 2nd edition, medieval chivalry and everything.  OK, how much sense does it make for this female paladin to be laying down her cloak so that a lady can cross a puddle over it?  One visible crack, and you should probably check the whole mold.  The mold was in bad shape, but it was his mold, and he refused to consider any other.  For that and a couple dozen other reasons, the campaign fell apart and my wife started a new one.Even the slightest touch of a real world example would not sway him: the crusades.  Christian and Muslim, both considered themselves 'good' (though both positions are dubious from their behavior from our 20th century perspective).  Both sides have paladins.  Both sides have paladins hacking at each other with holy swords because of cultural and very minor religious differences.  This should make it pretty clear that the western way is not correct by default, and that culture plays a major part in any discussion of good, chaos, evil or law, or even in the definition of neutrality.Back to the topic, what have I leaned from playing D&D?  Only this:That without a precisely defined frame of reference, no question, or answer to that question is valid in any way.OK, a degree in physics with tons of math helped to set that perspective as well, but it was not translated beyond the theoretical until gaming after college.  Though I've gamed since 4th grade, I never considered the weighty, philosophical issues we discuss today until I had to get a job and earn a living.-Fletch!</blockquote>

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