Are military armies valid in 4e?

[StreamOfTheSky]

And again...by the time a wizard is toting around that wand of fireballs, of course level 1 grunts won't stand a chance! Even then, if they've all been given bows, crossbows, or slings, a large mass of guys by sheer odds should get enough solid hits to kill the wizard. *sigh* Protection from Arrows would give the wizard more survivability, but it runs out. Wind Wall + Fly might possibly enable him to be undefeatable...Except in that case the army would just fall back such that if the wizard wants to keep slaughtering them, he has to get away from the protection of his wind wall.

Bullgrit, sorry if I'm talking too much about regular level 1 warriors. I've been trying to advocate in most of my posts that in a world with magic and monsters that's incredibly unrealistic, to not have more varied armies. But a lot of people seem to think a group of weak NPCs are a lot more helpless than they actually would be, and it's just irritating me.

Umbran: That's a good point about the back lines with reach, it certainly would help to crush a cavalry charge. But lances do have reach, as well. So the best the back lines would do is discourage the cavalry to use Ride-by Attack to ride off to safety after the charge. Which, granted, is a big benefit since then the knights are basically stuck in melee. Still, if you had a well staggered group of longspearmen all set against a charge, you could make leave enough gaps for cavalry to rush through but laergely cover those gaps with spearpoints, so after riding by they'd either after to halt well within move+melee (or even 5 ft step) range or suffer painful readied attacks. That method would seem equally viable to me, and would reduce casualties from area spells. I can't recall at the moment, but I'm pretty sure there were at least a few historical battles where an infantry army actually did leave a few "lanes" open for explicitly this purpose, controlling where the enemy cavalry would go.

 

[S'mon]

If the PCs learn that an army, 5,000 strong, is advancing on their position, does that mean there are just 5,000 0/1st-level men marching to them? Is that what "army" means? Just a whole bunch of "typical soldiers"? So the PCs could safely assume there's no cavalry, no archers, no spell-casters, no monsters? Just a bunch of hand-to-hand warriors?

IMCs a typical army of 5000 would have all those things, except possibly monsters (griffons, wyverns etc). Trained monsters are much rarer than spellcasters.
In my 3e campaigns I'd break it down this way - which is NOT per RAW though, the 3e RAW say the vast bulk of armies are 1st level commoners & warriors.

2,500 1st level
1250 2nd level
625 3rd level
312 4th level
156 5th level
79 6th level
39 7th level
19 8th level
10 9th level
5 10th level
5 11th level+

For a typical army it'd be 20% missile troops, 20% cavalry and 1% with magical abilities (these are %s that give a bonus in the BECMI War Machine rules, which I use). Most of the army would be Warriors, perhaps some elite units with Fighters, and small numbers of Rogues, Wizards and Clerics.

The kind of armies I tend to see PCs massacre tend to be smaller, and with little magical support - orc or barbarian hordes; though the Mongali Nomads are much feared even by very high level PCs due to their powerful archers & magic.

 

[S'mon]

Does this not suggest that battles in a 4e setting are going to more closely resemble a typical pre-gunpowder battle than anything else with prehaps some special effects from rituals and scrolls?

That's my feeling. At any rate it's much easier to run something resembling a medieval or ancient battle in 4e without changing the game as presented. That was not the case in 3e, and to a lesser extent 1e-2e.

In 3e there was IME really no way of getting away from the superiority of magic over martial power, but in 4e it's quite easy.

 

[AllisterH]

I think the biggest difference is that the 4e medieval army is actually going to be using more magic even though it is less overt than previous editions.

Simply put, to use any type of magic pre 4e, you had to have a spellcaster. Whereas in 4e, one feat gives you access to Ritual magic.

Which army commander isn't going to (ab)use Animal Messenger? I know many a medieval army that at least would have killed for Purify Water ritual and I fully would think that at least every 10-12 soldiers in the 4e army has the Ritual Caster feat even for just the "Create Campsite" ritual.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

It bears saying that in 4E, the average run of the mill caravan guard is defined as a 3rd level Soldier(Human Guard) and a mounted Knight is a 7th level soldier(Human Cavalier).

 

[S'mon]

It bears saying that in 4E, the average run of the mill caravan guard is defined as a 3rd level Soldier(Human Guard) and a mounted Knight is a 7th level soldier(Human Cavalier).

There's no fluff saying the Human Guard is a typical caravan guard or the 7th level cavalier a typical knight. The latter seems unlikely in most campaigns.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

There's no fluff saying the Human Guard is a typical caravan guard or the 7th level cavalier a typical knight. The latter seems unlikely in most campaigns.

There is also no fluff saying that the mass of humanity(or demihumanity) consists of 0-level and 1st level losers.

 

[Andor]

Another key difference between 3e and 4e is the lack of support classes in 4e. Yes, there are leaders, but in 3e you could take a squad of 20 0-level peasant levies and vastly improve their performance by giving them a Marshall, a Bard and a Dragon Shaman to act as force multipliers (seargants). 4e has nothing like those classes.

 

[AllisterH]

Another key difference between 3e and 4e is the lack of support classes in 4e. Yes, there are leaders, but in 3e you could take a squad of 20 0-level peasant levies and vastly improve their performance by giving them a Marshall, a Bard and a Dragon Shaman to act as force multipliers (seargants). 4e has nothing like those classes.

Eh?

How does a warlord or a bard NOT significant;y improve a troop's competence in 4e? High level warlords hand out monster bonuses...

 

[Korgoth]

It bears saying that in 4E, the average run of the mill caravan guard is defined as a 3rd level Soldier(Human Guard) and a mounted Knight is a 7th level soldier(Human Cavalier).

Which means that most wars in a 4E world end with both armies starving to death because it takes so long to kill one another.

Give me the days when a 4th level character was a "hero" and 1st level character was a "veteran" (elite trooper).