Are monster defenses too high?

[Jhaelen]

But more generally, are monsters just too are hard to hit?

Nope.

 

[D3nt3]

More generally, is it just a lack of "team play" that makes encounters seem tougher then they are?

IMO, yes it is.

 

[Mesh Hong]

My players complain that the monsters hit the characters all too easily.

Yes, but they don't do that much damage compared to the amount of healing a group can have available. Thats the important point that players sometimes fail to grasp.

 

[Herschel]

More generally, is it just a lack of "team play" that makes encounters seem tougher then they are?

Yes. From the written word around the boards here, even many of the diehard gamers think too much about their character in a vacuum of percentiles vs. defenses. Buffs and tactics are part of what make sthe game interesting and fun. Just trying to turn whatever class you're playing in to the best damage dealer it can be alone is what the designers appear to be trying to get away from.

 

[renau1g]

The only time I find them too high is if the group fights a higher level soldier, then they only hit around 30-ish % at lower levels. Flanking and buffs help a lot though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The only defenses I'd consider to be possibly too high WERE Solos and maybe Elites. The issue is you're expected to basically fight a level +3 or so Solo and its got an AC boost of 2 over regular monsters. That means you're down to hitting maybe 40% of the time instead of vs most monsters where its probably more like 65-70% hit rate. Debuffing effects really help as they are more effective than in "normal" encounters, but even so its tough going. If the Solo happens to be a soldier, then there's another 10% off the hit rate of ALL attacks and if you happen to have a slightly sub-par character they may be down to a 10% hit rate.

Of course WotC seems to have noticed this, since Solos and Elites no longer get defense bonuses anymore.

For garden variety monsters? There's no problem. If its a tough encounter with say a couple of overleveled monsters, then yeah, the party will have some trouble hitting them, but standard monsters really should be rarely overleveled much and soldiers simply shouldn't be overlevel at all in most cases.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

How about some math?

Low Monster Defense (Brute & Artillery): Level+12
Med. Monster Defense (Skirmisher, Lurker, Controller): Level+14
High Monster Defense (Soldier) Level+16

Fighter Starting Attack Bonus:
4 (STR) + 2 or 3 (proficiency) + 1 (Weapon Talent) = 7 or 8

Rogue Starting Attack Bonus:
4 (DEX) + 3 (proficiency) + 0 or 1 (Weapon Talent) + 0 or 2 (combat advantage) = 7 or 8 or 9 or 10

Warlord Starting Attack Bonus:
4 (STR) + 2 or 3 (proficiency) = 6 or 7

Ranger Starting Attack Bonus:
4 (STR or DEX) + 2 or 3 (proficiency) + 0 or 1 (Prime Shot) = 6 or 7


7 is the most occurring and common number so we can start there and you can adjust by 1 (5%) as you see fit.

Base Attack Bonus vs Low Monster Defense = 7 vs 13
A 6 or higher is needed to hit, and a 5 or lower is needed to miss, so there is a 75% chance to hit and a 25% chance to miss.

Base Attack Bonus vs Med. Monster Defense = 7 vs 15
An 8 or higher is needed to hit, and a 7 or lower is needed to miss, so there is a 65% chance to hit and a 35% chance to miss.

Base Attack Bonus vs High Monster Defense = 7 vs 17
A 10 or higher is needed to hit, and a 9 or lower is needed to miss, so there is a 55% chance to hit and a 45% chance to miss.

Here is a probable attack vs defense progression chart where the main attack stat is always increased and magic item bonus to attack is increased at levels 3, 7, 13, 17, 23, and 27.

L A AC %
1 7 15 65%
2 8 16 65%
3 [B]9[/B] 17 65%
4 10 18 65%
5 10 19 60%
6 11 20 60%
7 [B]12[/B] 21 60%
[B]8[/B] 14 22 65%
9 14 23 60%
10 15 24 60%
11 15 25 55%
12 16 26 55%
13 [B]17[/B] 27 55%
[B]14[/B] 19 28 60%
15 19 29 55%
16 20 30 55%
17 [B]21[/B] 31 55%
18 22 32 55%
19 22 33 50%
20 23 34 50%
[B]21[/B] 24 35 50%
22 25 36 50%
23 [B]26[/B] 37 50%
24 27 38 50%
25 27 39 45%
26 28 40 45%
27 [B]29[/B] 41 45%
[B]28[/B] 31 42 50%
29 31 43 45%
30 32 44 45%

So if you fight a level 30 soldier at level 30 you will have a 35% chance to hit.

 

[D3nt3]

I disagree, my fellow soldier, you are getting only attacks vs AC. Most of caster's attack are against reflexes or will.

And most important, at higher levels there are a lot more in-game conditions that can give you a lot more hit power, like attack bonuses, defenses debuffs and other conditions stuffs. And those bonuses get really high. A mediocre leader will give you at least +2 every single turn, during the whole encounter. While a good one buffs to up +10.

You are showing the maths for a solo player, I have always said that the team game overruns the lone player.

 

[keterys]

A mediocre leader will give you at least +2 every single turn, during the whole encounter.

How?

While a good one buffs to up +10.

For one monster per day, or one attack per encounter, or only certain types of attacks...

And again potentially with a 35-55% chance to hit.

 

[D3nt3]

Astral Seal, Cleric At-will.

If you have a well-built leader you can use up to 4 encouter powers to buff and you get up to 4 daily powers. In epic levels your encounters can be replenished and some dailies can be restored.

A group with at least two leaders wont have problems to hit.